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Inca Religious Victory Games Discussion Thread

Discussion in 'Civ4 - Hall of Fame Discussion' started by Firmlife, Jan 30, 2013.

  1. Sun Tzu Wu

    Sun Tzu Wu Deity Supporter

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    @Kaitzilla:

    Did you intentionally post "Global warming can be controlled." in the "Inca Religious Victory Games Discussion". These Inca RLDV games are extremely unlikely to last long enough for "global warming". :lol:

    Sun Tzu Wu
     
  2. Firmlife

    Firmlife Chieftain

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    I've been less than thrilled with my two latest submissions (Tiny/Quick, Duel/Mara), but I'm wary of being bogged down pursuing perfection, and I'm eager to move on, so I turned them in. I don't think I'll be submitting anymore before the update, so I was putting this data together for my own information. I figured I may as well share.

    Column 1
    Size Speed Inca Turn Previous Best Previous Leader
    Duel Quick 45 58 Qin Shi
    Tiny Quick 48 52 Isabella
    Duel Epic_ 81 113 Qin Shi
    Tiny Epic_ 82 104 Qin Shi
    Duel Mara 140 164 Qin Shi


    Any help making tables look nice would be appreciated.

    Also, I noticed a curiosity in the HoF tables. There are nine slots for Small Map/Marathon/Religious Victory across the various difficulties. Eight of them, all except for Deity, are occupied by one Robert_Marshall. He doesn't own a single spot anywhere else, not even among religious victories of any other speed or any other size map.
     
  3. WastinTime

    WastinTime Deity Supporter

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  4. Firmlife

    Firmlife Chieftain

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    I knew I should have been more specific. I can write both html and bbc code for tables myself, but I can't get the forum to recognize it. I've only been able to get it to recognize carriage returns as column markers.
     
  5. WastinTime

    WastinTime Deity Supporter

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    what about the html button?
     
  6. Firmlife

    Firmlife Chieftain

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    You'd think, but no, this just took the html code that was not being recognized to start with and put it in a cut-out box, like a spoiler box but with no spoiler button. Was I doing something wrong somehow? I love rhetorical questions.
     
  7. Sun Tzu Wu

    Sun Tzu Wu Deity Supporter

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    Excellent work FirmLife!

    I beat the Emporer Tiny Marathon #1 game, but for some reason unknown to me, WastinTime subsequently beat my game.

    WastinTime, thanks for joining us on our quest. It would be more efficient for you pick games that neither Firmlife or I indicate that we are playing. You did know that I had already beat the Emporer Tiny Marathon RLDV #1 game, right?

    Sun Tzu Wu
     
  8. Ozbenno

    Ozbenno Fly Fly Away Moderator Hall of Fame Staff

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    You might have noticed WTs game was NOT Inca, don't think he has joined your quest ;)
     
  9. Sun Tzu Wu

    Sun Tzu Wu Deity Supporter

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    Deleted.
     
  10. WastinTime

    WastinTime Deity Supporter

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    First off, I apologize for taking STW's only spot. It is not my intention to attack your positions. When I did that one, I thought you were going to do a half dozen others. I am not on your quest. I just wanted to play one non-Inca game to keep you honest. Without my game, you might try to claim that the Inca can beat other civs by at least 10%. Now it is Qin that has beaten the Inca by over 10% (t141). I look forward to a t126 Inca game. Emperor is harder than Deity/Imm because there are no workers to steal. In my t141 Qin game, since I didn't even settle on a pHill, I had to build a worker for 30 turns!
     
  11. Sun Tzu Wu

    Sun Tzu Wu Deity Supporter

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    My Inca game wasn't very good, but was good enough to beat the previous #1 by 10%. Do you really think your new non-Inca game can't be beat by an Inca game by at least a 10% margin? Then why bother to play, if that was the only reason.

    I don't buy your reasoning that Emporer is harder than Deity. Until very recently, I built every Worker myself and never DoW'ed an AI to steal a Worker or capture a City. Sure, AI Workers don't show up until about t20, so building at t0 might be prudent. However, Emporer technologies are significantly smaller than Deity technologies which allows one to get Theology potentially sooner.

    Sun Tzu Wu
     
  12. WastinTime

    WastinTime Deity Supporter

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    Too much theory and not enough action. If you want to claim Inca will beat that Qin game by 10%, play the game. Your goal is turn 126.

    If you think Emperor is easier than Deity, then you should be able to beat the Deity dates for the same slot on Emperor. I await your turn 119 Duel/Marathon game.
     
  13. Firmlife

    Firmlife Chieftain

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    First, I think 10% is too high, even on marathon, and especially on non-Deity levels. I think somewhere on the order of 5-8 turns for marathon sounds about right to me, and that's more like 3-5%. To be honest, I think this percent holds across speed for Religious Deity games, but it turns out to be only about a turn or two for Quick games.

    Second, the ai do start with a worker on Immortal. The problem I run up against on Immortal is if you steal all their workers, the ai will not found a second city. I usually pull back after three steals to allow them some space towards the end. But on small maps it makes it impossible to steal a city early and use it to do something productive.

    Last, Wastintime is playing a different game than we are. He doesn't play a map unless he gets Mining or Masonry from a hut. On marathon, popping Masonry is about a 6-8 turn advantage, which wipes out the Inca advantage if you don't do likewise. He has every right to do this under current rules, of course. And he's also optimized his tech path to incorporate both this tech pop and worker stealing.

    I've been lazy about which maps I play because I find the map finder aspect of HoF the least fun, because I don't have a tremendous amount of processor time to just spend searching for maps, and because I don't think anyone but WastinTime can challenge the dates I'm putting up. But if WastinTime's going to be contesting spots, using huts to offset the Inca advantage, tongue-in-cheek pretending it doesn't exist, we won't have much choice.

    Let me add, to balance my tone, that the 141 turn Qin game is still very impressive, and that I in no way dispute the fact that claims that Inca are dramatically superior should be contested, challenged, and examined.
     
  14. WastinTime

    WastinTime Deity Supporter

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    As I constantly have to remind people, huts are not as good as you think they are. They often have little to no effect on the big picture. Free Masonry does not cut 6-8 turns off your final date. At some point the 'long pole' is workers/hammers. That's why it doesn't matter that much that techs are cheaper on Emperor. And a free tech--when tech is not the critical path--doesn't do much. It all comes down to how fast you can chop Oracle/AP.

    Other than that, your analysis is good. Congrats on your Immortal Religious games! I went after the Emperor slot because your dates were very competitive and I didn't think I could make as big of a splash as I hoped to make.

    RE:mapfinder. Just run it while you're sleeping.

    This is a fun quest and I hope you'll continue and maybe we'll attract some others. I know I'm happy to have a reason to play non-Inca. Good Luck!
     
  15. Sun Tzu Wu

    Sun Tzu Wu Deity Supporter

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    Firmlife has the situation summed up.

    The way WastinTime uses Tribal Villages is game breaking. Pretty much 1-2 technologies from them per game. It really helps to get that first useful technology on t0 and abandon the game otherwise. That may legal by HoF rules, but it is exploitative in my opinion.

    We want to focus exclusively on the Exploitative nature of using the Inca Civ. Using any other exploitative techiques other then the Quechua unique unit of the Inca Civ simply obscures its exploitative nature.

    When I said Inca should do 10% better than non-Inca, I meant as the HoF Immortal and Emporer table was a update ago. Not after a non-Inca date has been increased using every exploit possible. There are just too many variables and I simply don't feel comfortable regenerate maps to always get a free, useful technology from Tribal Village on t0.

    Furthermore, the point isn't just the advantage that the Quechua allows, but it completely controls the game until an AI is able to shake a choking Quechua and connect Horse, Copper or Iron.

    I'll leave you to meeting all your own challenges; please go ahead and use any legal exploit to do so; you will probably need. The challenges I'm interested have nothing to do with your games, until such time you decide to join us in our quest.

    Sun Tzu Wu
     
  16. WastinTime

    WastinTime Deity Supporter

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    contradicts....

     
  17. Sun Tzu Wu

    Sun Tzu Wu Deity Supporter

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    The first item is a question after the update.

    The second item is a plan agreed to before the update. It is missing the key phrase "using every exploit possible" in reference to non-Inca games subsequently played. Please try to quote complete sentences to keep the original meaning intact.

    I see no conflict between the two, with or without the omission for that manner.

    ==================================================

    I see this thread as a way for Firmlife and I to communicate our shared vision. The best way to participate is to join us in that vision. This thread is devoted to demonstrating that Inca is overpowered in RLDV games. If you do not agree, you are welcome to start your own thread demonstrating that the Inca Civ has no advantages over non-Inca Civs in RLDV games.

    Sun Tzu Wu
     
  18. WastinTime

    WastinTime Deity Supporter

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    Even if the title of the thread was "demonstrating that Inca is overpowered in RLDV games in a biased way", it's not much of a discussion if you don't allow opposing views. I didn't realize I was unwelcome. I'll try to stay of your way, because I would like to see the quest continue.
     
  19. shulec

    shulec Grrrrr... I AM the force! Hall of Fame Staff

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    I should point out that the title of the thread is:
    "Inca Religious Victory Games Discussion Thread "

    I will also remind your best option to accomplish what you are trying to do above is to use your private messages.

    I will do the sensible thing:

    I am now unsubscribed!
     
  20. neilmeister

    neilmeister Lentils have feelings too GOTM Staff

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    But is a noble quest, undertaken for pathetic reasons, still noble?

    ... unsubscribed as well
     

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