Incentives under communism?

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It's not a quote. It's a diagnosis of your position on the subject.

Oh, how very hypocritical of you. You don't know me. Yet you insist you have me figured out.

You're way off. I'm not against better future. I just don't share your vision of it. It has far too many holes, it can't account for far too many things.

No you're not, because you literally just compared the concept to Soviet Russia or some other similar regime.

Because those regimes were created by people attempting to fill those same holes using force.

There will always be gaps when debating theoretical systems. Nothing is foolproof. The point is to engage in good faith, instead of assuming something's doomed to failure and arguing backwards from that predetermined conclusion.

That's why they have to be put to thorough critical examination. And for that, they have to be sufficiently defined.

You're deflecting both with your "you have no imagination". Hilariously, you're showing the lack of it yourself by insisting it's your way or nothing better.
 
As explained by other people in the thread, the police are primarily designed to protect private property. The police (and by extension the criminal justice system) are so institutionally bad at doing the things that the public would actually like them to do (stopping axe murderers, school shooters and rapists) that the whole institution ought to be discarded and reworked from the ground up. That is what I mean by police abolition.

Do you merely want to replace the police with a better police? If not, then what do you want to replace the police with?
 
Oh, how very hypocritical of you. You don't know me. Yet you insist you have me figured out.
I don't think I have you "figured out" at all. I don't know your jobs, your family, your experience, your education, anything like that. I know your posts on this topic, both in this thread and in previous ones, and that's about it.

But like I said. Maybe you're just bad at this critical analysis stuff, which is why you're resorting to an attempt at turning my discussion with Zardnaar around on me. Maybe there's another explanation.
You're way off. I'm not against better future. I just don't share your vision of it. It has far too many holes, it can't account for far too many things.
"I don't share your vision" means I was right, lol. You don't want to entertain it. You may think you have good reasons for doing so, but ultimately all it means is you were never going to engage constructively with the premise.
Because those regimes were created by people attempting to fill those same holes using force.
No, those regimes emerged in a bunch of different ways (the events of deposing the Tsarist regime into Stalin taking over as Lenin's successor is a very different story to what happened in China, for example). You can object to the force all you want, I'm not here to defend Soviet Russia or whatever China counts as.

It's funny you talk about history though, given how you're papering over it.
You're deflecting both with your "you have no imagination". Hilariously, you're showing the lack of it yourself by insisting it's your way or nothing better.
Do you have a better way, separate to both capitalism and socialism? Explain it. "Prove" how it would be better.

I can't imagine something you haven't even posted, silly.
 
Do you merely want to replace the police with a better police? If not, then what do you want to replace the police with?
This is like asking Republicans (as in anti-Monarchists) “Do you merely want to replace the King with a better King?”

I want to replace the police with something that actually is effective at dealing with violent crime. This will likely be so radically different from a police force that it probably shouldn’t be described as one.

I need to do more reading into police abolitionist literature to give you a more concrete answer.
 
“something we haven’t thought of” and “not what we have now” isn’t exemplifying any imaginative abilities of those advocating communism, either.

The immediate moves are taking away their guns, stamping out the "warrior" nonsense, training them to de-escalate and drastically reducing the scope of qualified immunity.

I can't answer what the future, perhaps centuries from now, will look like in any great detail. Again for the more immediate future, I think the places from which to draw inspiration are the Seattle and St. Louis general strikes, and the Paris Commune. Ideally perhaps the police would be a bit like jury duty, with people selected through sortition to serve on a temporary basis. Maybe a smaller unit that looks more like the police we have today, to deal with cases of extreme outlying violence.
 
This is like asking Republicans (as in anti-Monarchists) “Do you merely want to replace the King with a better King?”
And then Republicans went ahead and the majority ended up with one of:
- a worse king (an autocracy without a defined line of succession)
- a king in all but name (hereditary dictatorship)
- an elected, powerful king (presidential republics)
- an elected representative king (parliamentary republics)

Only very few countries really did away with the one-man-as-head-of-state concept and ended up with something radically different (Switzerland)

So in my opinion, this is a valid question to ask. Or in other words: Do you want to evolve the current concept or come up with a new concept altogether. The latter is riskier, but might have higher rewards.

I want to replace the police with something that actually is effective at dealing with violent crime. This will likely be so radically different from a police force that it probably shouldn’t be described as one.

I need to do more reading into police abolitionist literature to give you a more concrete answer.

I could think of a conscription police (not really appealing) and a militia police. But I don't think either are really that radically different and would still require a professional backbone. If you have any ideas, please share.
 
I don't think I have you "figured out" at all. I don't know your jobs, your family, your experience, your education, anything like that. I know your posts on this topic, both in this thread and in previous ones, and that's about it.

But like I said. Maybe you're just bad at this critical analysis stuff, which is why you're resorting to an attempt at turning my discussion with Zardnaar around on me. Maybe there's another explanation.

Or rather, you are just bad at critical analysis, because...
"I don't share your vision" means I was right, lol. You don't want to entertain it. You may think you have good reasons for doing so, but ultimately all it means is you were never going to engage constructively with the premise.

To do some critical analysis, you need people to disagree with you, to ask hard questions and get answers. That doesn't mean they don't entertain the notion. I have examined it and found lacking, and thus asking questions. You fail to provide answers. That you don't understand the process and consider it offensive is your problem.

No, those regimes emerged in a bunch of different ways (the events of deposing the Tsarist regime into Stalin taking over as Lenin's successor is a very different story to what happened in China, for example). You can object to the force all you want, I'm not here to defend Soviet Russia or whatever China counts as.

It's funny you talk about history though, given how you're papering over it.

You have no idea what I am talking about.

How did Lenin get followers for his revolution? He found dreamers, people disillusioned with current situation, who could be directly or indirectly, suckered with vague promises of communist "utopia" into doing violence on his behalf and propel him into becoming head of his own fascist government, which used the same promises over and over to establish a regime that was nothing like those promises. And if some of those people protested, if the violence went too far for their tastes, he had them executed. Same story all over in China, Cuba, Cambodia and so on.

Do you have a better way, separate to both capitalism and socialism? Explain it. "Prove" how it would be better.

I can't imagine something you haven't even posted, silly.

Personally, I'm a proponent of a mixed, quasi-capitalist system where state owns significant industries in key areas and uses them to fund more extensive social safety net, like small guaranteed basic income and basic housing, and in times of crisis uses them to affect market via exerting its market position, rather than just legislatively.

To illustrate, think back to the recent energy crisis. The increase of prices was driven not by actual lack of resources but panic and uncertainty being used as excuse for price hikes. Now, imagine that, in some affected country, instead of ineffectually levying "windfall tax" and belatedly implementing price caps, government would be controlling one of major energy providers, and simply refused to hike the prices. The rest of the providers would have to comply, or lose their market share to the government company.

Of course, this system has its share of issues, chief of them being setting up incentive structures in a way that both attracts competent people to the government positions and prevents the worst of systemic corruption and sliding toward either current capitalistic system or dictatorship, as socialism tends to do, while preserving the better parts of capitalism.

But this topic isn't about that. It's about socialism and communism, and thus the burden of explanation and proving the system is on its proponents. So you.
 
It's maybe a digression from the conversation about communism, but I've been thinking about the question of what an alternative to policing might look like. It's a multifaceted problem, and possible solutions would therefore have to be multifaceted. In short, there is no one answer, and anyone seeking one will forever overlook potential solutions which taken together could affect real progress. Some of what we need for true criminal justice reform actually lies outside the scope of criminal justice, because so many of our systems and problems are intertwined and overlap. In this case, I think we have to look at poverty, healthcare - specifically, mental health - and the proliferation of guns, each of which is its own monster.

But there are some real-world things we can look at which, when taken together, start to create a picture of what an alternative system of policing could perhaps look like. That is, the imagination we have to apply isn't entirely in the particulars, but in putting together existing, disparate pieces into a conceptual whole, a "bigger picture" that might at first seem utopian.

For example, there's a city in Oregon, I think it's Eugene, that has had social workers working alongside their other "first responders" for something like 30 years, and they've had great success. They've saved the city money and diverted people away from the criminal justice system. Other cities have had 'pilot programs' and whatnot, and I think some few have committed to it (Denver, maybe?) but only recently.

There's a city in Florida that, at least for a time, had great success with a rehabilitation program for people getting out of jail or prison. I seem to recall it had a jaw-dropping effect on recidivism rates, but I think the program may have been discontinued.

I think there are multiple cities that have implemented "diversion" programs at the criminal court level, for people facing drug use & possession charges (and I think there's at least one that was focused on helping veterans with the myriad problems they face). It's basically a court - defendants are taken before a real judge - but instead of being charged with a crime and arraigned, they're given the opportunity to get treatment, help with housing or finding a job, mental-health counseling, or whatever their problem is.

A number of cities have civilian oversight review boards empowered to investigate accusations of misconduct by police, and I think they're frequently quite effective.

A number of police departments are now training their officers in de-escalation techniques. I think it's too early to say whether this is having any effect, and anyway, a great amount of the problem is cultural, not merely about training or policy. Some writer, I forget who it was, writing about the culture of policing rightly said that "culture eats policy for breakfast." But still, providing officers with the tools and the official permission to de-escalate situations is a necessary, if insufficient, step.

A number of states and cities have imposed limitations on "qualified immunity" for police officers, or banned it entirely. I'm not sure the proverbial jury is in yet on the effect of removing that preferential treatment of police. I think a lot of the limitations and bans came only after the murder of George Floyd, so it's still early days, and I think fewer than a dozen states are doing it.

The federal Justice Department can also, by request, conduct an investigation of a police department's operations, identify problems, recommend solutions, and help implement them. This is not necessarily adversarial, as some Republicans would have you believe. In fact, in some cases, the municipalities and their police departments themselves have welcomed such interventions. I believe the mayor and police commissioner of Baltimore were among the people who objected when then-Attorney General Jeff Sessions rescinded the 'consent decree' implemented by the Justice Department under the previous administration.

There's one big problem that needs to be overcome, and I'm not aware that a whole lot has been done on this point yet: Get profit-making out of the criminal justice system, at every level, and in every way.

There was a time, in the 19th century, when firefighting was a profit-making business in big cities such as New York. It was a disaster, completely contrary to the goals of firefighting. Profit is completely contrary to the goals of criminal justice too, at every single level, because a proper criminal justice system would be focused on prevention and rehabilitation. Our criminal justice system is not about prevention or rehabilitation, and it can't be as long as companies make money off it. There are some places nibbling around the edges of this problem (e.g. moving away from for-profit prisons) but not a lot's been done.

Another example, get rid of bail. All bail. Everywhere. Some places are working on that. I'm not sure how far along they are or what the results have been.

Asset seizures is a major problem that has at least been identified as such - including by a Supreme Court justice - but I'm not sure any municipalities or departments have actually started to reform that yet.

So now we apply our imaginations. Imagine you're the mayor of a good-sized town or small city and you combine all of this stuff: You have a small police department. You have a 3rd or 4th branch of your emergency services that consists of social workers, who are dispatched by your 911 system to crises involving someone under the influence of drugs, or someone having a mental health crisis, or someone who's homeless, or domestic disturbances. You have a special court-room in your courthouse that's specifically for drug-users and homeless people and other people on the edge, not to let them off the hook, but to give them one, last off-ramp from the road they're headed down, and get them help instead of locking them up. Your police department is not allowed to seize assets without a court order, and your courts do not impose bail. You have a civilian oversight board empowered to investigate complaints from citizens. Maybe your town also doesn't allow police officers 'qualified immunity.'

Have I just solved all of our problems with policing? No, of course not, let's not be stupid. Have I started to assemble something that might be the start of something? I'll let you decide. But what I have done is assemble things that people are already trying and programs that have already been implemented, just not all together in one place. With the exception of getting profit out of criminal justice entirely, everything here already exists and has shown promising, if not tremendous, results.
 
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And then Republicans went ahead and the majority ended up with one of:
- a worse king (an autocracy without a defined line of succession)
- a king in all but name (hereditary dictatorship)
- an elected, powerful king (presidential republics)
- an elected representative king (parliamentary republics
I would say all of these things are quite different from a King. Like a head of state is not automatically a King, even if they weren’t elected democratically.

So in my opinion, this is a valid question to ask. Or in other words: Do you want to evolve the current concept or come up with a new concept altogether. The latter is riskier, but might have higher rewards.
I want a new concept. Unless someone can provide me with an evolution of the current concept that doesn’t suck, but that seems unlikely at this point.

If you have any ideas, please share.
I don’t. I will leave that to people smarter than I. I think Angela Davis has a lot of good ideas in this area and I intend to read more of her work.
 
How did Lenin get followers for his revolution? He found dreamers, people disillusioned with current situation, who could be directly or indirectly, suckered with vague promises of communist "utopia" into doing violence on his behalf and propel him into becoming head of his own fascist government, which used the same promises over and over to establish a regime that was nothing like those promises. And if some of those people protested, if the violence went too far for their tastes, he had them executed.
This is ridiculously historically inaccurate. This paints Lenin out to be a Saturday morning cartoon villain rather than the nuanced historical figure he was.

When exactly did Lenin lie to his followers? Please show me where he lied. From my understanding he was always very clear about his goals and motives and he followed through on them to the best of his ability.

Also what warped definition of Fascism are you using so that Lenin is defined as one?
 
This is ridiculously historically inaccurate. This paints Lenin out to be a Saturday morning cartoon villain rather than the nuanced historical figure he was.

When exactly did Lenin lie to his followers? Please show me where he lied. From my understanding he was always very clear about his goals and motives and he followed through on them to the best of his ability.

Also what warped definition of Fascism are you using so that Lenin is defined as one?

The usual one. In practice, the only differences between your typical fascism and Lenin's one party state is the ideological bait it uses to control the population, and extent of state's direct control of the industry, which is very variable issue in fascism anyway.

He was telling the truth that he wanted to establish a fascist state, even though he did not call it that. He lied in saying it's merely an intermediate stage in establishing communism. There's no realistic way to transition, as the inherent top-down control, unchecked corruption, fostering cult of personality, law and media control create a more stable fascist dictatorship.
 
It's maybe a digression from the conversation about communism, but I've been thinking about the question of what an alternative to policing might look like. It's a multifaceted problem, and possible solutions would therefore have to be multifaceted. In short, there is no one answer, and anyone seeking one will forever overlook potential solutions which taken together could affect real progress. Some of what we need for true criminal justice reform actually lies outside the scope of criminal justice, because so many of our systems and problems are intertwined and overlap. In this case, I think we have to look at poverty, healthcare - specifically, mental health - and the proliferation of guns, each of which is its own monster.

But there are some real-world things we can look at which, when taken together, start to create a picture of what an alternative system of policing could perhaps look like. That is, the imagination we have to apply isn't entirely in the particulars, but in putting together existing, disparate pieces into a conceptual whole, a "bigger picture" that might at first seem utopian.

For example, there's a city in Oregon, I think it's Eugene, that has had social workers working alongside their other "first responders" for something like 30 years, and they've had great success. They've saved the city money and diverted people away from the criminal justice system. Other cities have had 'pilot programs' and whatnot, and I think some few have committed to it (Denver, maybe?) but only recently.

There's a city in Florida that, at least for a time, had great success with a rehabilitation program for people getting out of jail or prison. I seem to recall it had a jaw-dropping effect on recidivism rates, but I think the program may have been discontinued.

I think there are multiple cities that have implemented "diversion" programs at the criminal court level, for people facing drug use & possession charges (and I think there's at least one that was focused on helping veterans with the myriad problems they face). It's basically a court - defendants are taken before a real judge - but instead of being charged with a crime and arraigned, they're given the opportunity to get treatment, help with housing or finding a job, mental-health counseling, or whatever their problem is.

A number of cities have civilian oversight review boards empowered to investigate accusations of misconduct by police, and I think they're frequently quite effective.

A number of police departments are now training their officers in de-escalation techniques. I think it's too early to say whether this is having any effect, and anyway, a great amount of the problem is cultural, not merely about training or policy. Some writer, I forget who it was, writing about the culture of policing rightly said that "culture eats policy for breakfast." But still, providing officers with the tools and the official permission to de-escalate situations is a necessary, if insufficient, step.

A number of states and cities have imposed limitations on "qualified immunity" for police officers, or banned it entirely. I'm not sure the proverbial jury is in yet on the effect of removing that preferential treatment of police. I think a lot of the limitations and bans came only after the murder of George Floyd, so it's still early days, and I think fewer than a dozen states are doing it.

The federal Justice Department can also, by request, conduct an investigation of a police department's operations, identify problems, recommend solutions, and help implement them. This is not necessarily adversarial, as some Republicans would have you believe. In fact, in some cases, the municipalities and their police departments themselves have welcomed such interventions. I believe the mayor and police commissioner of Baltimore were among the people who objected when then-Attorney General Jeff Sessions rescinded the 'consent decree' implemented by the Justice Department under the previous administration.

There's one big problem that needs to be overcome, and I'm not aware that a whole lot has been done on this point yet: Get profit-making out of the criminal justice system, at every level, and in every way.

There was a time, in the 19th century, when firefighting was a profit-making business in big cities such as New York. It was a disaster, completely contrary to the goals of firefighting. Profit is completely contrary to the goals of criminal justice too, at every single level, because a proper criminal justice system would be focused on prevention and rehabilitation. Our criminal justice system is not about prevention or rehabilitation, and it can't be as long as companies make money off it. There are some places nibbling around the edges of this problem (e.g. moving away from for-profit prisons) but not a lot's been done.

Another example, get rid of bail. All bail. Everywhere. Some places are working on that. I'm not sure how far along they are or what the results have been.

Asset seizures is a major problem that has at least been identified as such - including by a Supreme Court justice - but I'm not sure any municipalities or departments have actually started to reform that yet.

So now we apply our imaginations. Imagine you're the mayor of a good-sized town or small city and you combine all of this stuff: You have a small police department. You have a 3rd or 4th branch of your emergency services that consists of social workers, who are dispatched by your 911 system to crises involving someone under the influence of drugs, or someone having a mental health crisis, or someone who's homeless, or domestic disturbances. You have a special court-room in your courthouse that's specifically for drug-users and homeless people and other people on the edge, not to let them off the hook, but to give them one, last off-ramp from the road they're headed down, and get them help instead of locking them up. Your police department is not allowed to seize assets without a court order, and your courts do not impose bail. You have a civilian oversight board empowered to investigate complaints from citizens. Maybe your town also doesn't allow police officers 'qualified immunity.'

Have I just solved all of our problems with policing? No, of course not, let's not be stupid. Have I started to assemble something that might be the start of something? I'll let you decide. But what I have done is assemble things that people are already trying and programs that have already been implemented, just not all together in one place. With the exception of getting profit out of criminal justice entirely, everything here already exists and has shown promising, if not tremendous, results.
Nice to see some nuance. 👍

Abolishing all police a dumb idea, making them more accountable and adding mental health responders for non-violent situations is a great idea (and will save police budgets money in the long run)
 
To do some critical analysis, you need people to disagree with you, to ask hard questions and get answers. That doesn't mean they don't entertain the notion. I have examined it and found lacking, and thus asking questions. You fail to provide answers. That you don't understand the process and consider it offensive is your problem.
I don't consider it offensive at all. I wasn't the one of the ones making a bunch of replies annoyed I and other posters diagnosed a lack of imagination :)
He found dreamers, people disillusioned with current situation, who could be directly or indirectly, suckered with vague promises of communist "utopia" into doing violence on his behalf
We've moved on from papering over history to outright rewriting it.

You have your boogeymen, and that's fine. But don't expect me to take them seriously. I have no doubt in material terms you have very good reason to fear the spectre of Soviet Russia (at a guess, maybe one of the other ones). However reaching back to demonise Lenin is just like, lol.
Personally, I'm a proponent of a mixed, quasi-capitalist system where state owns significant industries in key areas and uses them to fund more extensive social safety net, like small guaranteed basic income and basic housing, and in times of crisis uses them to affect market via exerting its market position, rather than just legislatively.

To illustrate, think back to the recent energy crisis. The increase of prices was driven not by actual lack of resources but panic and uncertainty being used as excuse for price hikes. Now, imagine that, in some affected country, instead of ineffectually levying "windfall tax" and belatedly implementing price caps, government would be controlling one of major energy providers, and simply refused to hike the prices. The rest of the providers would have to comply, or lose their market share to the government company.

Of course, this system has its share of issues, chief of them being setting up incentive structures in a way that both attracts competent people to the government positions and prevents the worst of systemic corruption and sliding toward either current capitalistic system or dictatorship, as socialism tends to do, while preserving the better parts of capitalism.

But this topic isn't about that. It's about socialism and communism, and thus the burden of explanation and proving the system is on its proponents. So you.
The topic is about whatever we make of it. You're the one who accused me of a lack of imagination because I wasn't considering other alternatives. Other alternatives have to exist outside of capitalism or socialism, or ultimately are variations of one of those two.

Yours is pretty capitalist, albeit one with nationalised institutions and stronger social securities. So less capitalist than a bunch of Western nations currently. I'd consider it an improvement on what we have now, but ultimately still a stepping stone to something better.
 
I don't consider it offensive at all. I wasn't the one getting a bunch of replies annoyed I and other posters diagnosed a lack of imagination :)

We've moved on from papering over history to outright rewriting it.

You have your boogeymen, and that's fine. But don't expect me to take them seriously. I have no doubt in material terms you have very good reason to fear the spectre of Soviet Russia (at a guess, maybe one of the other ones). However reaching back to demonise Lenin is just like, lol.

The topic is about whatever we make of it. You're the one who accused me of a lack of imagination because I wasn't considering other alternatives. Other alternatives have to exist outside of capitalism or socialism, or ultimately are variations of one of those two.

Yours is pretty capitalist, albeit one with nationalised institutions and stronger social securities. So less capitalist than a bunch of Western nations currently. I'd consider it an improvement on what we have now, but ultimately still a stepping stone to something better.

You're the one who started accusing others of having lack of imagination. Don't get your knickers in a twist about that.

As for Lenin...he did the demonizing himself. The terror and body count of his revolution and government is undeniable. The only thing that's debatable here is whether he was closeted fascist from the start, only using communism as ideological pretext, or he turned that way after rising to power.
 
You're the one who started accusing others of having lack of imagination.
I am one of the people who hold that opinion, yes. Because when it comes to literally anything attached to socialism, you go on tangents about the demonic Lenin and his fascist wiles. Kinda helps prove my point, eh?

That said, that is pretty imaginative.
The terror and body count of his revolution and government is undeniable.
I believe I've mentioned this before, but boy howdy if we're going into the body counts racked up by governments, the US and the UK would like words lmao. Capitalism isn't as rosy as you seem to think it is, and if you hold a pragmatic approach to capitalism's impact on the world, you're being very selective in what ideologies get to benefit from pragmatism and what don't.

But again, boogeymen. I know why you have these opinions, and I'm not going to be the one that changes them. Nor can I.
 
I am one of the people who hold that opinion, yes. Because when it comes to literally anything attached to socialism, you go on tangents about the demonic Lenin and his fascist wiles. Kinda helps prove my point, eh?

That said, that is pretty imaginative.

I believe I've mentioned this before, but boy howdy if we're going into the body counts racked up by governments, the US and the UK would like words lmao. Capitalism isn't as rosy as you seem to think it is, and if you hold a pragmatic approach to capitalism's impact on the world, you're being very selective in what ideologies get to benefit from pragmatism and what don't.

But again, boogeymen. I know why you have these opinions, and I'm not going to be the one that changes them. Nor can I.

Lenin tossed people sweet, empty words about communist utopia and led a reign of terror. So did Mao and others. So whenever someone mentions communism and socialism, I want more than just sweet, empty words. So far, you haven't provided anything like that.

You haven't checked the body count, by the way, otherwise you wouldn't be trying such whattaboutism. Let me refresh you memory:
Lenin: 1-2M from Red Terror and Gulags. Up to 5M through famine caused or amplified by awful government policies.
Stalin: Approx 6M from repression, gulags and other targeted means of disposal like refusal of aid during Holodmor. Tens to hundreds of thousands in satellite states from repression during establishing of vassal government. War deaths not counted.
Mao: estimated range from 40 to 80 million in total, although at least half is unintentional as side effect of bad agricultural policies leading to famine.

Rest of the world doesn't hold a candle to that.
 
If we really lived in a profit maximizing system I would have been underpaid and overpraised by some 24th floor outfit a long, long time ago.

Instead everyone fights for their way in, and it’s super inefficient compared to potential, even if abusive by design, which is already oversimplifying it.
Well it's not really about maximizing profit, it's about controlling it. "Maximizing profit," wherever or whenever you have heard it, is a marketing trick or gimmick to get investors to move on your blue chip or underwrite your latest liquidation/takeover.

The capitalists have routinely declined profit maximizing measures when they perceived that it was profit they didn't need or which screwed with a good thing they already had going. They were, sometimes, eaten for it and had their entrails ripped out and spread across the flower bed, fertilizing a new generation of businesses. But generally they were slowly consumed by massive accumulators. These accumulators are driven to pursue the highest profits, because that's why they get out of bed, but the rule of making profit in the first place means they can never actually maximize it. What they can do is reach a maximum capacity, whereby all manners of useful goods are being made, and unemployment has been driven so low that people all make a good wage. But would this be a "maximum profit" regime?

No, because profits do not actually come from making the most goods or paying the best wages. They come from finding the biggest and most exploitable gap between the price of a good or service that is being demanded and the cost at which that good or service can be delivered. And as labor price is a key ingredient here, when the U.S. reached high capacity and low unemployment, they called it "stagflation" and the capitalists had no other choice but to seek new profits the only places they could be found: in developing nations with subterranean prices, and in the capital equipment and real estate that they had sitting around being used by the less profitable industry. Sure enough, those industries were gutted, new "higher value" jobs like doorman multiplied enormously, and wages in the U.S. have been frozen ever since.

Profits, however, have been soaring, and much of the world has become industrialized. And that becoming industrialized has involved the creation of a great many new fortunes. Each of these fortunes represents a real opportunity, an opportunity to build a new industry and lord over it as patron, an opportunity to cut in on the global neoliberal free trade regime - and the entire point of capitalism really is that anyone who wants to get in on that opportunity has to make the best offer. Any means are acceptable, but you won't win by paying high wages and getting sucker deals. You have to find a way out, a way to get ahead; to abuse something, and it just so happens labor is generally at your mercy because laborers have to eat.

"Abusive by design" doesn't really get at it. It's abusive as a core feature. Making profit isn't income over externalities, it's over costs to you. And sometimes the only cost to you is what it takes to set up a grift. But it sure is inefficient and that's why the financialists can't help themselves knocking out the struts once there's nothing else for them to pillage. In the U.S., a battle is raging over the constant drain to the resources of cross-country rail freight, which have been realized as record-breaking profits and margins for the rail companies. All they had to do was cut a few safety features and pay their friends in Congress to see it done. Now toxic acrylic gets spilled all over the Midwest. Will it be cleaned up? Will the good capitalists swoop back in, cop the difference on the chin, and pay to restore good standards? Well, maybe, but I just don't see how they can compete doing that.
 
"Abusive by design" doesn't really get at it. It's abusive as a core feature. Making profit isn't income over externalities, it's over costs to you. And sometimes the only cost to you is what it takes to set up a grift. But it sure is inefficient and that's why the financialists can't help themselves knocking out the struts once there's nothing else for them to pillage. In the U.S., a battle is raging over the constant drain to the resources of cross-country rail freight, which have been realized as record-breaking profits and margins for the rail companies. All they had to do was cut a few safety features and pay their friends in Congress to see it done. Now toxic acrylic gets spilled all over the Midwest. Will it be cleaned up? Will the good capitalists swoop back in, cop the difference on the chin, and pay to restore good standards? Well, maybe, but I just don't see how they can compete doing that.
This isn't a uniquely capitalist issue. China's regard for it's citizens isnt exactly something to write home about. Everyone plays the game
 
The immediate moves are taking away their guns, stamping out the "warrior" nonsense, training them to de-escalate and drastically reducing the scope of qualified immunity.
Sorry, I didn't see this post before I posted mine. This is pretty much what I have in mind, and none of it is utopian, imo. A lot of it is already happening.

I'm on the fence about unarmed police. There are times and places where sending armed officers is counter-productive, but I think in those cases, maybe we shouldn't be sending police at all. I think introducing some kind of "health services" arm of municipal 911 response - social workers - to respond to certain kinds of calls is probably the way to go.

I forgot to mention the "demilitarization" of police, the warrior nonsense you mention. That's also something that's happening in some places already. There's a big fight brewing in Atlanta/Fulton County over "Cop City." I kind of hope that becomes a bigger national story. I wouldn't mind seeing it become a real political firestorm, to be frank. The city government there won't even allow it to go before the voters, even though the opposition have gotten more than the number of signatures they supposedly needed to get it on a referendum ballot.


Ideally perhaps the police would be a bit like jury duty, with people selected through sortition to serve on a temporary basis. Maybe a smaller unit that looks more like the police we have today, to deal with cases of extreme outlying violence.
Off the top of my head, there are very few jobs currently done by police that I would want disinterested amateurs handling. Traffic details at construction sites is literally the only one I can think of. When New York City suffered its massive blackout in 2003, civilians stepped up to direct traffic and, afaik, did a great job. Other than that, if there's something cops do now that average folks could handle, maybe it's not worth doing at all.
 
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