Incentives under communism?

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No one's claiming capitalism is perfect, USA basically sucks.
This wasn't anyone's argument.
It's Thessaloniki of the atrocities in communusm and the severitybof the violence.
Reminder: the original point was the paranoia of spying on your neighbours.

You're the one that turned it into a "this many deaths is worse than that many deaths, gg communists". Unsurprisingly, nobody has really wanted to engage with this strawman you've drummed up, not least because everyone's already gone over it a hundred times in the past 71 pages.
 
This wasn't anyone's argument.

Reminder: the original point was the paranoia of spying on your neighbours.

You're the one that turned it into a "this many deaths is worse than that many deaths, gg communists". Unsurprisingly, nobody has really wanted to engage with this strawman you've drummed up, not least because everyone's already gone over it a hundred times in the past 71 pages.

Blaming AIDs on capitalism is stupid it's like blaming CCP for Covid.

Both governments messed up the responses the 700k AIDs deaths was a whataboutism about USA deliberately murdering millions.

A good chunk of those deaths would have happened any way and in any event capitalism didn't cause AIDs.
 
(I mean, the USA has also murdered millions on its current soil in a previous centuries and in other nations soil in 20th century soooooooo...........................................)

Edit: Let me be clear. That is not a whataboutism - thats a correction to where you said that it never happened.
 
Yes, middle class white Americans living in suburbia. I struggle to imagine something more paranoid than calling the cops because a black man walked down the street or because a black family had a barbecue in the local park, on top of the other incredibly bizarre things that Americans living in suburbia do on the day to day.

Shooting a teenager in the face because he rang your doorbell
 
Blaming AIDs on capitalism is stupid it's like blaming CCP for Covid.

Both governments messed up the responses the 700k AIDs deaths was a whataboutism about USA deliberately murdering millions.

A good chunk of those deaths would have happened any way and in any event capitalism didn't cause AIDs.
You keep dropping "crisis" out of the phrase "AIDs crisis". This substantially alters what's being said.

The problem is, do you keep repeatedly doing this by accident, or are you intentionally twisting my words? :)
 
Congratulations. You have just described the experience of being a gay person in the United States up to 2003.

I mean also the experience of living in a Home Owners Association neighborhood lol

(Or like the White Ciziens' Council I guess, keeping the Bad People from moving in and bringing down our property values)
 
I mean also the experience of living in a Home Owners Association neighborhood lol

(Or like the White Ciziens' Council I guess, keeping the Bad People from moving in and bringing down our property values)

Yes but I’m referring specifically to neighbors reporting neighbors to the police for suspected gay sex, for which the police posted surveillance, staged stakeouts and sting operations, and followed people home from bars in the hopes of catching someone in the act.

Gay people didn’t create a large network of speakeasies, complex sexual signaling systems, and engage in surreptitious hookups in the bushes by truck stops and in public park bathrooms just because we wanted a bit of excitement in our lives. We did so because gay sex was illegal in most states and you never know who could be watching.
 
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Yes but I’m referring specifically to neighbors reporting neighbors to the police for suspected gay sex, for which the police posted surveillance, staged stakeouts and sting operations, and followed people home from bars in the hopes of catching someone in the act.

Gay people didn’t create a large network of speakeasies, complex sexual signaling systems, and engage in surreptitious hookups in the bushes by truck stops and in public park bathrooms just because we wanted a bit of excitement in our lives. We did so because gay sex was illegal in most states and you never know who could be watching.

Gay sex was illegal until 2003? I thought 2003 was for gay marriage, wasn't gay sex decriminalized in like the 60s?
 
Gay sex was illegal until 2003? I thought 2003 was for gay marriage, wasn't gay sex decriminalized in like the 60s?
Texas and 13 other states had sodomy laws until they were overturned by a supreme court ruling in 2003
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lawrence_v._Texas
After Roe vs. Wade was overturned some supreme court judge said that Lawrence v Texas and several other rulings should be challenged.
 
Gay sex was illegal until 2003? I thought 2003 was for gay marriage, wasn't gay sex decriminalized in like the 60s?

See above. Technically 12 states still have sodomy laws on their books, only rendered inert by the Supreme Court ruling. Those would go back into effect the instant the ruling in Lawrence v. Texas was overturned
 
Since this thread is supposed to be about incentives and Communism...
the almighty Wiki said:
In 1933, the Soviet government under Stalin recriminalised sex between men. On 7 March 1934, Article 121 was added to the criminal code for the entire Soviet Union that expressly prohibited only male homosexuality, with up to five years of hard labour in prison. There were no criminal statutes regarding sex between women. During the Soviet regime, Western observers believed that between 800 and 1,000 men were imprisoned each year under Article 121.[37]

Some historians have noted that it was during this time that Soviet propaganda began to depict homosexuality as a sign of fascism[38] and that Article 121 may have a simple political tool to use against dissidents, irrespective of their true sexual orientation and to solidify Russian opposition to Nazi Germany, who had broken its treaty with Russia.[39] In a famous article in Pravda on 23 May 1934, Maxim Gorky said: "There is already a sarcastic saying: Destroy homosexuality and fascism will disappear."[40]

In 1993, declassified Soviet documents revealed that Stalin had personally demanded the introduction of an anti-gay law, in response to a report from deputy secret police chief Genrikh Yagoda, who had conducted a raid on the residence of hundreds of homosexuals in Moscow and Leningrad in August 1933,[41] about "Pederast activists" engaging in orgies and espionage activities.[42] Beyond expressed fears of a vast "counterrevolutionary fascist homosexual conspiracy", there were several high-profile arrests of Russian men accused of being pederasts.[43] In 1933, 130 men "were accused of being 'pederasts' – adult males who have sex with boys. Since no records of men having sex with boys at that time are available, it is possible this term was used broadly and crudely to label homosexuality".[43] Whatever the precise reason, homosexuality remained a serious criminal offense until it was repealed in 1993.[43]

The Soviet government refrained from publicizing the new law outside of the USSR, and there was little international response. In 1934, the British communist Harry Whyte wrote a long letter to Stalin condemning the law and its prejudicial motivations. He laid out a Marxist position against the oppression of homosexuals as a social minority and compared homophobia to racism, xenophobia and sexism.[44] Stalin did not reply to the letter, but ordered it to be archived, and added a note describing Whyte as "An idiot and a degenerate."[45]

A few years later in 1936, Justice Commissar Nikolai Krylenko publicly stated that the anti-gay criminal law was correctly aimed at the decadent and effete old ruling classes, thus further linking homosexuality to a right-wing conspiracy, i.e. Tsarist aristocracy and German fascists.[43]
...
In 1983, a group of 30 Russian gay men met and attempted to organize a gay rights organization under the name «Гей-лаборатория» («Голубая лаборатория») "Gay lab" / ("Blue lab"). At this point, homosexual relations were still punishable by a term of up to five years in prison. The group was put under pressure by the KGB and finally broke up in 1986.[56] It was not until later in the glasnost period that public discussion was permitted about re-legalizing private, consensual adult homosexual relations.

A poll conducted in 1989 reported that homosexuals were the most hated group in Russian society and that 30 percent of those polled felt that homosexuals should be liquidated.[37] In a 1991 public opinion poll conducted in Chelyabinsk, 30 percent of the respondents aged 16 to 30 years old felt that homosexuals should be "isolated from society", 5 percent felt they should be "liquidated", 60 percent had a "negative" attitude toward gay people and 5 percent labeled their sexual orientation "unfortunate".[57]

I don't know about you, but that would give me a very strong incentive to leave the Soviet Union.
 
Since this thread is supposed to be about incentives and Communism...


I don't know about you, but that would give me a very strong incentive to leave the Soviet Union.

Just remember kiddies the west isn't perfect but it's basically worse everywhere else.
 
Since this thread is supposed to be about incentives and Communism...
And yet many people keep telling me the flaws of the state aren't inherent to the ideology. When it comes to capitalism anyway. Only capitalism :)
 
And yet many people keep telling me the flaws of the state aren't inherent to the ideology. When it comes to capitalism anyway. Only capitalism :)

More example used aren't exclusive to capitalism or cherry picked examples.

AIDs was man made like famine in various countries. They're criticizing the response to a natural event and even cherry picking iy. Communist countries also have a poor response to curious disasters.

Using AIDs as another example say Covid. NZ did about as well as it was possible and it's a capitalist country.

Alot of these disasters we are referencing are primarily caused by communist doctrine eg seizing the means of production with farmers. It's right there in Marxism 101.

Capitalism may have issues with resource depletion but that's also a case in communust and pre capitalist nations so once again not capitalisms fault as such. That's more human experience. Our existence tends to be bad for the environment.

There's no one guiding ideology with capitalism as an economic system. You can regulate it, reform it, tweak it. There's no one size fits all doctrine saying you can't do xyz or ABC.

In Communist thought you cant really do that as it's a codified ideology. Communism as attempted has resulted in man made disaster after another. Said nations usually reform into some sort of hybrid system essentially because Marx was a clueless idiot political philosopher not a statesman or economist or had any experience in state craft. Like most good communusts he died broke reliant on capitalisms support.

He'll you try and reform communism you get called a revisionist and modern communism seems heavy influenced by Maoism online and guess what they want to do with revisionists.

Even your answers essentially booked down to hope and change. Worked out well for Obama.

I get the desire to make the world a better place. Capitalism USA style not a fan but you're barking up the wrong tree with the inherent problems in communist ideology and attempts to practically implement it. It's because to attempt so the violence, destruction and death is inherent to said attempts to implement it.

Much like extreme right/ failed Austrian painter it's a feature not a bug.
 
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More example used aren't exclusive to capitalism or cherry picked examples.
Most examples used aren't exclusive to either Communist (autocratic) states or even communism (little c) either.

Or are cherry-picked examples that deliberately go against the OP where they literally specify "ideal communist society", instead of, y'know, "the Stalinist USSR".

Is it too much to ask for anyone to be consistent?
 
Most examples used aren't exclusive to either Communist (autocratic) states or even communism (little c) either.

Or are cherry-picked examples that deliberately go against the OP where they literally specify "ideal communist society", instead of, y'know, "the Stalinist USSR".

Is it too much to ask for anyone to be consistent?

I am. The famines I've been vang8ng in about using the farming examples were middle man made disasters either via civil war or collectivism.

And it was consistent across most of the Communist regimes either outright disasters or a fall in production leading to some sort of hybrid models.

Starvation in Ukraine, Great Leap Forward, Killing Fields, Boat people in Vietnam, North Korea.

He'll they had to build a wall to keep people fleeing. I can't recall the exact details of Eastern Europe's collectivism experience but I don’t think it went to will from memory.

It's man made failure after failure. Seizing the means of production of factories is one thing on farms it's the definition of insanity. Zimbabwe (non communist) did something similar worked about as well as you would expect.
 
And it was consistent across most of the Communist regimes either outright disasters or a fall in production leading to some sort of hybrid models.
A lot of failures consistent under capitalism, too. We're back to "it doesn't count there", again :)
 
A lot of failures consistent under capitalism, too. We're back to "it doesn't count there", again :)

No one's really doubling down defending it and there's counter examples as well.

Any capitalist country deliberately murdered millions of its own citizens in peace time from 1917?

USA keeps getting used how about NZ or Norway or Sweden as counter examples.

Best countries in the planet for human rights are all capitalist, all western and all low corruption, high on peace index, democracies. Funny how that works.
 
Capitalist with a healthy dosis of socialism yes. You can't run a nation state based solely on capitalist principles or it would look like Congo Freestate.
 
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