Incentives under communism?

[Akka]

You mean the one where I'm literally arguing over a difference in opinion with Czreth? That thread?

It's funny how much of a hive mind you think goes on, that you have to dig up other threads to try and go LOOK MOM, THE EVIL COMMUNISTS ARE AT IT AGAIN, when all you're doing is flat-out demonstrating yes, you are incapable of nuance. "yes let's pick a page that opens with Gorbles and Czreth disagreeing, that'll show 'em".

I haven't spoken of hive mind, I have pointed, literally, at people who complained about "lack of nuance" in a thread and went to approve of considering "fascist sympathizers" those who would consider Pol Pot and Hitler comparable in how destructive to their own people.
And you specifically, complained about how others seemingly forget that one can be both against the invasion of Ukraine and the dirty deeds of the USA, but in this thread you don't seem to be able to apply this reasoning to communism and nazism.
That you can disagree and argue with a pro-communist doesn't change that.

My rule of thumb is simple. Anyone who goes on about "ideologues", or agrees with that kind of content, is invariably one themselves. Traditionally they see themselves as apolitical, but, uh, lol.

I don't have an "ideology", I have "principles" (and that doesn't mean being "apolitical" at all, but I guess we were speaking of lacking nuance after all).
Maybe you don't see a difference, but there sure is a big one.

 

[Gorbles]

I haven't spoken of hive mind, I have pointed, literally, at people who complained about "lack of nuance" in a thread

I complained about a lack of nuance, so I figured you included me. Certainly doesn't feel like you're not including me.

And you specifically, complained about how others seemingly forget that one can be both against the invasion of Ukraine and the dirty deeds of the USA, but in this thread you don't seem to be able to apply this reasoning to communism and nazism.

Oh hey! You're including me

So, to get this straight, you've invented a position in your head that I do not hold, and you're trying to argue with me about it? I'm not that interested, but let's play along. One can be against both Communism and Nazism. Trying to get into a mudslinging content over which one is worse, just because you're (the generic "you", probably Zardnaar at the time) is trying so hard to make Communism THE WORST THING EVER . . . is not that.

On the face of it, it's a non-starter. A bunch of people have explained why already, and have promptly been ignored for <reasons>. The second is there are no winners. The point isn't to determine a winner. The point is to say both are bad, and stop trying to make one out to be worse just because you really want one to be worse. Both are horrific, and yet despite repeatedly saying that I get Zardnaar saying I'm a "communist sympathiser"? And you don't take issue with his logic? You focus on mine?

And you say you're not bunching us all under a singular hive mind? Of course you are. You can rationalise it to yourself as much as you want, but you are choosing to argue with specific posters on grounds of "logic", and completely ignoring the silly logic other posters choose to indulge in. All because of your ideological opposition to the political grouping of myself and certain other posters. "principles", sure.

I don't have an "ideology", I have "principles"

Oh okay, then so do I. Your judgement of my principles as an "ideology" notwithstanding, of course.

("principles" aren't selective, ya know?)

 

[Farm Boy]

I earnt around double the minimum wage contract picking apples. You got paid by the bin. $25 a bin minimum wage was around $8 per hour. Can't remember the exchange rate in 2000/2001. Because of the heat usually started around 7am finished around 3 if it got really hot. Or super energetic nice day work 12 hours.

Old retired lawyer did around 2 bins a day. He was there for something to do.

Bad day I did around 3 bins, good day 5. My wife could do 2-3 the fast experienced pickers could do around double my rate. Free accommodation provided.

Bins look the same size as ones I did. Bins at 0:35 mark. Cherries were big money around Christmas, thinned apples, worked in pack house and canning line as well.

Basically worked the season, went back home town, took month off, worked McDonalds 6 months, quit when it go to hot, took another month off drinking, met wife went back for another season with her, then relocated here permanently.

Picking apples is wonderfully clean work.

 

[NinjaCow64]

Yeah, I know.
But you brought it up for some reason, even though the fact that due to following with something any normal person would say you were suddenly engaging in "Holocaust revisionism" according to that logic should tell you everything you need to know about those "scholars".

Actually normal people don't say that the Nazis were less evil than the Soviets, because that's an incredibly evil thing to say.

The idea that "the Soviets were as bad as, or perhaps even worse than, the Nazis" is rhetoric used to downplay the activities of the groups like Estonian volunteers in the SS, reframing them as "glorious freedom fighters who reluctantly worked with the Nazis to secure Estonian independence from the even more evil Soviet Union" rather than the rotten collaborators that they were.

Even worse, some far-right groups imply that Eastern European and Baltic participation in the Holocaust was defensible because "well the Soviets did the same thing to us and plenty of the Soviets were Jewish, so its only natural we would do the same thing to them".

What else could this be but Holocaust revisionism?

 

[NinjaCow64]

Comparing this thread to another one is kinda amusing.
The very same people who complained about "lack of nuance" while they were going into full-whattaboutism mode there, and were lamenting that other were supposedly not able to remember that they could both condemn Russia and USA, are now calling or validating the calling of "nazi sympathiser" for anyone who speak of the mass murder of communist regimes.

The lack of self-awareness has always been a staple of ideologues, but boy is the cognitive dissonance on display here.

It almost like comparing the 1930s and 1940s Germany Nazi and Soviet Union is completely different to comparing 2020s America and Russia. Its almost like they are two completely different time frames with minimal overlap of governments.

 

[NinjaCow64]

Maybe you don't see a difference, but there sure is a big one.

You're going to have to elaborate because to me a series of principles is nothing more than an ideology.

 

[Farm Boy]

It would save a lot of time for some posters (also readers) if instead of doing this idiotic Pol Pot nonsense they just said "hail Hitler" with their full chest.

Come on, lads, we know you've got it in you! Let me start: Hail...

Speaking of picking apples. Gross.

 

[Lexicus]

I don't have an "ideology", I have "principles" (and that doesn't mean being "apolitical" at all, but I guess we were speaking of lacking nuance after all).
Maybe you don't see a difference, but there sure is a big one.

You absolutely have an ideology like everyone else, you just lack self-awareness about it.

 

[gay_Aleks]

Speaking of picking apples. Gross.

Yes, I suppose it's something of a rotten fruit to point out that there a lot of people on this forum who would embrace the Fuhrer as the second light in the sky. I agree.

 

[Farm Boy]

Picking, not storing.

 

[gay_Aleks]

Fermented, undrinkable. Indeed.

 

[Akka]

So, to get this straight, you've invented a position in your head that I do not hold, and you're trying to argue with me about it? I'm not that interested, but let's play along. One can be against both Communism and Nazism. Trying to get into a mudslinging content over which one is worse, just because you're (the generic "you", probably Zardnaar at the time) is trying so hard to make Communism THE WORST THING EVER . . . is not that.

Zardnaar has never held this position, and even clearly said explicitely the opposite, so speaking of inventing a position in the head that the other doesn't hold... oh well, ONCE AGAIN you are projecting.

And you say you're not bunching us all under a singular hive mind? Of course you are. You can rationalise it to yourself as much as you want, but you are choosing to argue with specific posters on grounds of "logic", and completely ignoring the silly logic other posters choose to indulge in. All because of your ideological opposition to the political grouping of myself and certain other posters. "principles", sure.

Well, as someone said...
So, to get this straight, you've invented a position in your head that I do not hold, and you're trying to argue with me about it?

Your habit of lecturing people about what you fail to apply to yourself is so ubiquitous as to become somewhat funny.

You absolutely have an ideology like everyone else, you just lack self-awareness about it.

I'm pretty sure you got the idea, but I stand corrected about the definition (and considering how I value exact definitions, I can't really complain here).
So let's say that I'm much more about being principled than about being an ideologue.

You're going to have to elaborate because to me a series of principles is nothing more than an ideology.

I would say that principles are more about moral rules and guidelines while ideology is more about politics and ideals.

 

[Farm Boy]

Fermented, undrinkable. Indeed.

Well, that was the whole original reason to plant the trees.

But it usually turns into vinegar, and families are generally somewhat displeased if the unpasteurized cider becomes apple jack while little Timmy is working through the carton.

That's still storage tho.

 

[Farm Boy]

Yeah, still being gross.

 

[Gorbles]

Zardnaar has never held this position

My dude, he literally said "the Nazis aren't as bad". This, by definition, means "Communism is worse".

It's amazing what you pick and choose to defend, just because of the sides you've decided to establish in a thread as you enter it.

Your habit of lecturing people about what you fail to apply to yourself is so ubiquitous as to become somewhat funny.

Given that this is all you can ever say, forgive me for not taking it seriously. You're the one who made up the claim that I can't apply the reasoning of "both are bad" when it comes to Communism and Nazism, and then when I conclusively said "you can say they're just as bad, no problem at all", your response is to accuse me of inventing a position, because literally all you can do in discussions like these when met with the slightest amount of critical analysis is to fold into recursive accusations of "i know you are you said you are but what am i".

Yeah, still being gross.

Let's say this is true. And?

What moral high ground are you arguing from, exactly?

 

[Farm Boy]

None. I'm just flinging poo from all the way down here with the apples and the hog****. Naturally.

 

[Sarin]

Actually normal people don't say that the Nazis were less evil than the Soviets, because that's an incredibly evil thing to say.

The idea that "the Soviets were as bad as, or perhaps even worse than, the Nazis" is rhetoric used to downplay the activities of the groups like Estonian volunteers in the SS, reframing them as "glorious freedom fighters who reluctantly worked with the Nazis to secure Estonian independence from the even more evil Soviet Union" rather than the rotten collaborators that they were.

Even worse, some far-right groups imply that Eastern European and Baltic participation in the Holocaust was defensible because "well the Soviets did the same thing to us and plenty of the Soviets were Jewish, so its only natural we would do the same thing to them".

What else could this be but Holocaust revisionism?

Nazism and any communism based on Marxism are equally evil, and far less different than many people realize.

Both designate certain population as enemies, elevate another, encourage and empower it to commit violence against designated population, establish a top-down, authoritative government structure that takes total control of the media and public discourse and use the "enemies domestic and abroad" excuse to tighten the grip and persecute the selected population, and so on...

They're both fascist ideologies, just with different ideological patina used as excuse.

 

[Gorbles]

None. I'm just flinging poo from all the way down here with the apples and the hog****. Naturally.

Thought so!

 

[Farm Boy]

Allow me to shield my eyes from all this lofty brilliance.

Actually, you know what? I think I'm finally going to get a straw hat like I see on great-great-grandpa way back when. Those look smart in the sun and comfy.

 

[gay_Aleks]

Nazism and any communism based on Marxism are equally evil, and far less different than many people realize.

Both designate certain population as enemies, elevate another, encourage and empower it to commit violence against designated population, establish a top-down, authoritative government structure that takes total control of the media and public discourse and use the "enemies domestic and abroad" excuse to tighten the grip and persecute the selected population, and so on...

They're both fascist ideologies, just with different ideological patina used as excuse.

So, are you saying that the Jewish people are equal to the bourgeoisie? Am I getting that right? Hitler's genocidal campaigns against the Jewish, Slavic and Roma people are the same as dispossessing people who have taken unjustly property away from others, which has been made with someone else's labour? Are we on the same page? I've got my notepad out, and all. Cheers for the first honest person in this thread.