Include in the WTP V's SubMod

Discussion in 'Civ4Col - We The People' started by Mr. ZorG, Apr 14, 2021.

?

Would you like to see these changes included in the WTP?

  1. Yes, I like everything and no more changes are needed

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  2. Yes, but balance edits are needed (I'll write in the comments)

    50.0%
  3. No, I tried and I didn't like it

    50.0%
  1. Mr. ZorG

    Mr. ZorG Prince

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    hello conquistadors)

    this thread talked about unit changes. me and other players really liked them. We would like this sub-mod to become part of the WTP. However, some changes are still needed in it.

    here's what we offer:
    - a lot of ships. too much complication. I suggest to leave a list, which you can see on the screenshot.
    - The Fluyt needs to be increased in strength, since its production already requires cannons, but they are not required to make the Caravel. I consider strength of 15 to be optimal for this ship. -1 to base speed, otherwise a rocket)))
    - the FF of Giovanni da Verrazzano giving two Galleons is imbalanced. I think that when accepting him to Congress, he should only give one ship.
    - as you can see, when buying units in Europe, the price does not increase. and this also greatly changes the balance of the game. the price should rise.

    please vote and give your opinion. let's make our favorite game a little better. and harder)))

    изменение по кораблям WtP.jpg
     
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  2. Mr. ZorG

    Mr. ZorG Prince

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    oh, I forgot to translate two words in the table into English.
    было = before, left column
    стало = after, right column
     
  3. raystuttgart

    raystuttgart Civ4Col Modder Supporter

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    Please read what I wrote here.
     
    Last edited: Apr 16, 2021
  4. Tugboatspotter

    Tugboatspotter Warlord

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    I think it should remain optional.
     
  5. raystuttgart

    raystuttgart Civ4Col Modder Supporter

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    Actually I could really imagine some parts of V's Sub Mod to be integrated into WTP core mod.
    (It needs to be discussed though.)

    ----------

    I just voted with "No", because fully integrating the sub-mod yet (as it is) is a no-go for me.

    1. He writes himself that some graphics are still bugged (either crash the game or lack animations)
    2. He writes himself that FF have not been adjusted (considering their balancing)
    3. Some of his changes are pretty bad for AI and at least need a more clever solution or a workaround that prevents damaging AI too much
    4. Some of his changes had already been suggested and rejected several times (e.g. purchasable Man O'War)

    ----------

    However all of these issues can be solved:
    (It is just a matter of time and motivation.)

    1. The graphic issues might be fixed if somebody invest the time to do so.
    2. The founding father balancing might be corrected / adjusted if somebody takes the time to do so
    3. The AI issues can be solved if a clever solution is designed and implemented if somebody takes the time to do so.
    4. The points that had been rejected in the past might be discussed again and maybe a consent, different solution can be found.

    ----------

    The simple solution "Let us just copy-paste" it, is definitely not going to work.
    It never has, when it comes down to integrating a mod-mod.

    Even if it is just a small one as "V's Sub Mod", it usually takes many many posts to find compromises and solutions.
    The only way to handle this is to "cut the elephant into pieces" and discuss and clarify every single change one by one ...

    ----------

    This needs to be integrated carefully by an experienced team member and with patience.
    (As I wrote internally, there are massive file conflicts with "Large Rivers" that need to be merged / resolved very very carefully or otherwise the new featues will get broken.)
     
  6. Mr. ZorG

    Mr. ZorG Prince

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    it is difficult but doable. this option is also under discussion.

    @raystuttgart , you wrote more on a different topic than here. I will answer you there. ok?..
     
  7. raystuttgart

    raystuttgart Civ4Col Modder Supporter

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    Are you talking about a "Game Option" to activate / deactivate a mod-mod?

    If yes, then I have to correct you:

    It is technically impossible to optionally activate / deactivate XML mod-mods as Game Option in CIV4Col.
    Especially if the XML mod-mod contains as many single small XML changes spread over so many different files as "V's Sub Mod".

    Technicaly you will always end up copy pasting and overwriting files in the file system.
    (Which is of course very prone to errors and lots of effort to maintain.)

    The only options that exist:

    1. Leave it completely independent as a separate optional mod-mod that overwrites XML files of the core mod if used. (As it is now.)

    Responsibility:
    Vaeringjar
    , no effort for the team if potential issues arise.
    --> To have even the slightest chance to maintain the sub-mod in the future, he should become a "close partner" of the team to get information and pre-release access to upcoming releases.
    • Pro: Everybody can decide for himself if he wants to use it or not. No consense, compromises and long discussions needed.
    • Con: Very prone to errors as it will be a lot of effort for Vaeringar to maintain it (keep it up to date with future changes of the core mod).
    2. Integrate / merge (selected parts of it) into WTP core mod and thus replace current XML configuration. (Which is what you requested.)

    Responsibility:
    WTP team
    takes over responsibility to maintain it including all efforts to fix issues of the selected parts integrated
    --> Ideally Vaeringjar would then join the team.
    • Pro: Considering Quality the best solution as it will be much easier to maintain it in the future. Some of the changes might actually be good ideas worth integrating.
    • Con: The team and community will need to find a consense about what gets integrated. Lots of discussion and compromises needed to find a consense.
     
  8. Mr. ZorG

    Mr. ZorG Prince

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    I meant the option "overwrite some files". but this will require creating a new DLL for each release. someone has to do it. that's what I asked for the tool for.
     
  9. raystuttgart

    raystuttgart Civ4Col Modder Supporter

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    Very very bad idea ... :eek:

    Did you think about what you are suggesting here ?
    You will end up having to maintain and update forever 2 XML versions and graphical versions of all affected files to prevent them to diverge over time !

    In the end you will be basically maintaining "V's Sub Mod" + "WTP core mod" just as now.
    The only difference is that you shifted the effort to maintain the mod away from Vaeringar to the WTP core mod team.
    (And additionally have to implement an absolutely technically pointless DLL change that does nothing more than copying files which everybody can do manually.)

    But well, if the team wants to take the effort to maintain 2 versions of the mod in parallel, I can not prevent it ...
    (But do not expect me to support this idea in any way. I would personally never ever work in 2 mod versions in parallel.)

    ----

    By the way:

    Changing simple XML files as long as they are compatible in XML schema does not require a new DLL !

    If the game crashes if you try to integrate V's Sub Mod into "Large Rivers" it is simply because the sub-mod is currently incompatible with the code and XML Shema of "Large Rivers".
    (Unless an experienced modder carefully adapts and integrates the XML changes to reflect the code changes and according XML Schema changes in Large Rivers.)

    Simply copy & pasting the XML files and compiling a new DLL will not work.
    (It will definitely continue to crash right away.)

    It will take several hours (I estimate that it will be about 3 hours) to carefully adapt and merge "V's Submod" into "Large Rivers".
    (Which implies that you are a modder that really knows what he does e.g a modder that understands XML-Schema and has some experience in carefully merging.)

    But before that can happen there needs to be a consense which parts should be merged and which parts should not be merged ...
     
    Last edited: Apr 16, 2021
  10. Mr. ZorG

    Mr. ZorG Prince

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    we do not understand each other. how did you add the sub-mod to 2.8.2.3? overwrote multiple files, right? I'm talking about it.
     
  11. raystuttgart

    raystuttgart Civ4Col Modder Supporter

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    No, Mr. Zorg I do understand you, but you do not understand how modding new gameplay features works. :(
    You do not understand that the XML Schema of Large Rivers and 2.8.2.3 are different. (Because Large Rivers also includes new features that have new XML tags.)

    2.8.2.3 does not contain any new gameplay features, thus it also does not include massive changes in XML files / XML structure / new XML tags.
    Again, "Large Rivers" is technically incompatible with even 2.8.2.3 and even its predecessor "Challenge" (If you simply copied the XML files from any of those versions the game would instantly crash.)

    Thus the XML files of "V's Sub Mod" work for 2.8.2.3 (as they have been implemented for it).
    But they will not work for "Large Rivers" because it also contains massive changes in XML structure (XML files) compared to 2.8.2.3 including new tags.

    Again:

    Even XML files made for 2.8.2.3 will not work for "Large Rivers".
    (If you simply copy paste the XML files from 2.8.2.3 the mod will instantly crash at start up. Just compiling a new DLL does not change that.)

    The same happens if you copy the XML files of "V's Sub Mod".

    Please believe me:

    The only way to make V's Sub Mod compatible with Large Rivers is to have an experienced modder invest at least 3 hours of effort to merge it.

    @Nightinggale
    Please help me to explain @Mr. ZorG what I am talking about.
    He seems to simply not understand me.
    I do not know how to explain it better to a non-modder ... :(
     
    Last edited: Apr 16, 2021
  12. Mr. ZorG

    Mr. ZorG Prince

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    I will write here too - I did not know about such "subtleties" between LR and 2.8.x.

    I also understand that before integrating the sub-mode into the WTP, you need to combine the LR and 2.8.x.

    upd.
    and that then there will be a period of tests. some errors are likely to be)) therefore, until all of the above has happened, the merits and demerits of the sub-mod can be discussed. that's why I created a theme.
     
  13. raystuttgart

    raystuttgart Civ4Col Modder Supporter

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    That is not necessary.

    All that is needed is to carefully merge the XML changes of "V's Sub Mod" file by file and XML tag by XML tag using an XML editor and pay attention to the XML structure according to the current XML Schema.

    The only thing that is not working is "copy & paste of complete XML files" instead of properly merging the content inside using an XML editor and knowing what you do.
    (Compiling a new DLL afterwards will not change anything about that.)

    Mods (or mod versions that have diverged considering features and XML structure) can simply not be merged that way.
    If you simply copy paste XML files of diverged mods or mod versions:

    Best case scenario: The new features of the new mod are completely broken or heavy bugs during game play. (If you are really lucky and did not overwrite a file with changed XML structure for one of the new features.)
    Worst case scenario: The mod instantly crashes at start up when reading the XML. (If you did overwrite a file with changed XML structure for one of the new features.)

    Sure. :thumbsup:
    I did not ask for anything differently.

    Let us simply figure out what we want to merge and what we do not want to merge. :)
    Then we can merge it. We will find somebody motivated enough to invest these few hours needed for it.

    And yes of course, every version of Large Rivers should be properly tested before release.
    (Which also includes all changes from integrations of other sub-mods because there could be errors from the merging process or unexpected side effects to balancing.)
     
    Last edited: Apr 16, 2021
  14. raystuttgart

    raystuttgart Civ4Col Modder Supporter

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    Hi guys,

    I discussed with @Schmiddie.
    (@Schmiddie, please correct me if I got anything wrong. :thumbsup:)

    Both of us agree that fully integrating all the new ships of V's SubMod into WTP core mod is a nogo for us.
    (Maybe there are one or two ship models though that might be reused after @Schmiddie checked and potentially improved them.)

    Reason 1: Graphical Quality (3D and Animations)
    • Some of the new ship graphics really lack in quality considering WTP's high quality standards considering details for ships models (e.g. the small nation flags).
    • Some of the new ships lack animations (e.g. movement, fortificatiuon or combat) which is also an absolute nogo because we would get endless bug reports over time.
    • Some of the graphics included (even if only available in World Builder and not normally ingame) cause CTDs because they have not properly been integrated in XML.
    • Many of the ship graphics look way too similar and on first sight it is really hard to distinguish them.
    @Schmiddie said that he would take weeks to correct the issues and create the missing animations.

    Reason 2: Gameplay Design and Balancing

    New Units should have a specific purpose. Sheer amount of "same old same old" does not make a mod better in our opinion.
    There is no reason in gameplay for 3 Types of Frigate or 4 Types of Ship of the Line.
    Many of the Ships only vary insignificantly in costs and strength but have the exact same spot in gameplay strategically.

    Also, some Nations seem to have gotten Nation specific Units while others seem to have not for no obvious reason to me. This is a nogo for me as a game designer.
    All nations need to be equally interesting and powerful, even if it is achieved by asymetric means which is actually the most interesting way to do it because it supports different gameplay strategies for different Nations.
    This definitely can be solved but it needs a good and interesting concept for gameplay that may span further than just Ships and may affect Land Units and Buildings as well.

    I know that other people and modders prefer immersion over gameplay and balancing but that is simply not our philosophie.
    Not everything that exists or existed in real world needs to be reflected in a game.
    It does not necessarily get better that way.

    Reason 3: Future Effort
    • It would be additional effort for me to adapt all your new Ships to the changed movement rules of Large Rivers
    • It would be additional effort to considering all your new ships in balancing and concepts of future updates (e.g. Tech Tree).
    • It would already now be an incredible effort to match e.g. balancing of Founding Fathers.
    • It would be even more effort if we ever have major graphical expansions that require e.g. changes in nationspecific UnitArtStyles
    • It would also be lots of effort to adapt all the Colopedia Texts of Game Concepts (which I doubt has been checked yet)
    • ....
    We simply do not want to commit to such a potential future effort if we see no reason in adding all these new ships at first.

    ------------

    Summary:

    We still need to figure out which parts of V's SubMod we want to integrate. :)
    But ships with bad graphics or ships without a gameplay purpose should not be part of it.

    But as I said there are potentially 1 or 2 ships with really nice models and animations we might find a good gameplay purpose for.
    Those we would then integrate and also accept the future effort to maintain them for all upcoming new updates and features.

    ------------

    @Vaeringjar

    I am really sorry if this sounds harsh. :(
    But I am just trying to reflect honestly the opinion of @Schmiddie and myself.

    This is not meant as criticism of your work, since we really appreciate if new modders create their own mod mods. :thumbsup:
    This is also not an objective judgment since in modding everything simply comes down to personal taste only.

    However we have always said that we wanted to be a quality mod that follows certain design principals.
    We have seen way too many bad examples of patchwork mod that were created without a proper concept to follow that road.

    Players usually do not consider the "long term" consequences of such simple decisions as "let us add 10 more Units" to the mod.
    But as "Game Designers" and modders that have been modding this game for almost 14 years now we have become very aware of such consequences.
     
    Last edited: Apr 17, 2021
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