Increasing medieval age period

[capman]

This topic has probably been covered several times but I'm too lazy too search.

Anyway reading about "beelining for astronomy" in the strategy guides for the 600AD mod and noticing viking caravels around 1000AD I looked at the tech tree more thoroughly.

I made following changes

Compass requires Paper: well for exploring you need to be able to make maps....

Optics requires Guilds: opticians as a guild ? ;-)

Astronomy requires Engineering: I wanted to see some castles built during the medieval age.

Gunpowder requires Civil Service: french musketeers and absolute monarchy...

I also increased the research cost of Theology to 700. This makes sure that the vikings start to research Civil Service to get their unique unit Beserker.

Besides focusing on aquiring their unique units civilizations should also spread their state religion through missionaries and buildings and convert at least their own cities. The AI does not do that...
The 25% construction bonus with organized religion is otherwise too powerful.

Anyway some ideas for improvement.

 

[Jeppson]

I like your ideas.

 

[MrPopov]

there's a problem increasing Theology too much though:

Spoiler :

I increased Theology to 650 and nobody got it until the Arabia spawn date.

 

[Rhye]

The theology thing is unneeded, since I can direct Ai preferences.

However, I will test the following:

Guilds -> Optics
Printing Press -> Nationalism

 

[SadoMacho]

Guilds -> Optics is a very good sounding change. We'll see some knights before the caravels rule the sees.

The Medieval time is often cut short be the race to astronomy. There is no real time for the dark ages and the castle age with the feudal lords. That's also why I think castles should be disconected from walls. In medieval time many cities were founded around a cstle and later got a citywall Some cities were first and a castle became part of the citydefence.

 

[Rhye]

the tests produced good results.
There's no significant delay in the colonization, but at least I don't see civs researching astronomy and nationalism in 1300 and signing defensive pacts in 1500.
I always thought Nationalism is out of place where it stands, way too early. So, rather than a drastic change, a late medieval prerequistite could do the work, what do you think?

 

[mitsho]

sure, why not. This could really serve the game well but I don't really dare to say with not having tried it out...
Gunpowder would also be nice to have later on due to the "really strong" cannons, but that might fiddle with some uhvs too much.
You can't disconnect walls from castle as nobody would build walls anymore. The castle gives everything they give and more so not really an incentive to build them anymore... (unless you add another effect, but what? culture is something that would fit perfectly, but that the castle has as well, a happy face might be too powerful, another trade route gives an imbalance between the medieval and later eras, but some commerce perhaps?)

m

 

[capman]

Ok increasing Theology to 700 was a hack ;-)
AI preferences is of course the way to do it.

That China and Arabia are the first to have Caravels makes sense.

Portugal on the other hand is way to weak with their late start around 1100s.
They are missing one or two starting techs. And should be "beelining" for Optics to get their unique unit Carrack. Even before the rest of Europe. If that is possible.

With my test I noticed France compared to other european states aquiring Optics first around 1300.

By the way I check the progress of the game using the integrated world builder.
Does that influence AI decisions? I noticed that AI cities produce a high percentage of military units and practically no buildings.

As to nationalism, printing press as prerequesite makes sense but its already in the Renaissance era. Guilds as prerequesite might be better.

Another possible dependency could be Education -> Astronomy.
Would give the Portuguese a head start with colonization...

 

[ADP101]

yea i would love to have arabia and china more powerful when Europeans spawn. It makes sence. Also i would really like to see more inner European conflict. (Brittain vs. France or spain etc). And i too notice Portugal being way to weak and often get vasilized by Germany or France.

 

[SadoMacho]

Nationalism should in fact be a late game tech. In 1830 to 1870 Europe had a lot of nationalist revolutions (Belgium, Poland, Italy, Germany,...) forming new nations by spliting up or by uniting teritories. And nationalist forces kept working Europe for a long time, and still do. Before there were not a lot of nationalist feelings in europe, maybe only France had something that could be considdered a national feeling, with it's stong central governement during absolutism and the Revolution.

China may have had nationalism all the time. There has allways been a sence of having to have a united china all the time and all emperors that lat the country fall apart had been considdered bad emperors, and the current day problems with the PRC and Nationalist China (Taiwan) are the same thing.

Nationalism often comes to early in the game because of the tech tree, if you consider teh civ tech nationalism to be what happend in Europe during the 1800's. printing press as prerequesite sounds as an improvement, but I would even swap it with constitution. In France, during the Revolution, people wanted to fight for the constitution of there Fench State, and it gave them a national identity as the state no longer was some guy who had everything because he was noble, but it was there to protect there rights. That's allso wat happend in th USA, I think.

 

[Rhye]

update: the tests produced not good, but average results.
Nationalism is still in 1500 and I will do something else while the real birth of nationalism could be traced to the napoleonic wars.
Possibly a few swaps will fix this issue.

Remember Nationalism disables mercenaries too, it's important to postpone it as close as possible where it should be, without breaking anything.

 

[Rhye]

ok here's the new tree I'm gonna test:

 

[SadoMacho]

looking nice, and if this doesn't work, maybe : liberalism and constitution-> nationalism

Liberalism tech should be around 1750 (Voltaire, Rousseau,...) and were the inspiration for the French Revolution, and the first constitutions (France, USA,...)

 

[capman]

Rhye, be aware that moving around techs won't solve the problem of techs in general appearing too early. Especially in later stages of the game.

On Monarchy level I noticed that in 1500 most nations are practially already in the industrialsm era. Renaissance era starting at 1300. To stop that perhaps increasing the cost for all techs would solve it. Presuming that tech trading won't increase because of that.

Renaissance starting around 1400 and industrialsm around 1700 should be aimed for.

 

[Rhye]

yeah capman I'm aware of it and I've already tuned the modifiers.

 

[capman]

I appreciate your effort Rhye. Thanks for continously improving this great game.

Constitution before Nationalism will of course delay the latter.
But having the Representation civic before Nationhood seems wierd.
I would leave it as before.

Is the civic Nationhood the problem or only the disabling of mercenaries?

Are there another techs which should be researched before Nationalism?

 

[Rhye]

But having the Representation civic before Nationhood seems wierd.

why is this wierd? It seems more correct to me

 

[capman]

why is this wierd? It seems more correct to me

Well, because before you can have representation for a certain community of people you need to define that community first.

Common language, culture, religion... okay I'm quoting from wikipedia ;-)
The introduction of citizenship and the middle class.
Not just aristocracy and serfs...
Guilds would make a good prerequisite for Nationalism.

That is why I disagree that Nationalism is a late game tech (19th century as SadoMacho suggests).

You can always introduce an additional tech for a later "Nationalism" and include those perks which would warp the game when used too early...

 

[Rhye]

depends on what meaning you assign to Nationalism.

I think your definition applies to "nation" better.
Nationalism is claiming that your nation is superior.

 

[SadoMacho]

I think nationalism is not the superiority feeling of nations in CIV IV. I think they see nationalism as the feeling of "one people, one nation" idea. The nationalism that spread in Europe during the 1800's, and inspired the revolutions in europe in that age and lead to the formation of nations like Germany, Italy, Poland, Greece, Serbia,...

That feeling of a superior nation of a superior people has more to do with rascism and is the radical form of nationalism.
In Belgium, we have 2 parties claming to be nationalistic
1) NVA is a party that want Flemmish indenpdence, but has rascist ideas
2) Vlaams Belang, a party that wants Flemmish independence and extreem right wing ideas on foreigners.

So there are a lot of differences between forms of nationalsim, but I think Firaxis sees nationalism as the idealogical ideas of the 1800's where one people with its own culture and language should be united in one nation. This gives its citizens a united feeling and makes them ready to fight for there nation, because the can identify with it. This is also what the quote says in the game.

The feeling of a superior nation has more to do with fascist, and even more so with national socialist ideas, though only in its most extreem form, and these ideas were formed in the 1920's and 30's.

I claim the nationalist ideas for a more late game tech for Europe (1800's) but I also explained they have been present in China earlier on. Even in Medieval France, sentiments of this feeling were present, when Joan of Arc lead the people to fight the Engish, and free the Frecnh of there domination. But nationalism became important during the 1800's when many European nations were formed.