independence granted, and now a -2 with all leaders?!
- Thread starter krp312
- Start date
Verge
Let's hug it out
Sounds like you're getting the demerit because you're retaining the colony as a vassal, and each vassal you have gives negative diplomacy points with every AI player.
Verge
Let's hug it out
Think old Europe whenever an empire grew too powerful, thus threatening the balance of power.
Gameplay-mechanics speaking, think along similar lines. Vassals contribute toward domination/conquest wins, and give you an overall boost despite increased maintenance.
jkp1187
Unindicted Co-Conspirator
Correct me if I'm wrong, but you don't always get the relationship penalty just by having a vassal. They have to consider the vassalized civ a 'rival'. (In other words, if they're friendly with the vassal, they don't care.) Perhaps the other civs got off on the wrong foot with your vassal because the vassal was running a different religion from everyone else?
KMadCandy
giggling permanoob
i'm completely befuddled about when and how severely that vassal negative modifier gets applied.
i don't get the impression it's at all related to how the AI feels about the vassal or about the master. when i've been paying attention to it i get a negative from everybody who's not my vassal if i get a negative at all. i read "our rivals" in that context as "other civs". the exception is that your other vassals don't hold it against you. makes sense: DPs work the same way, anybody in a DP with you doesn't resent you for any DPs you have.
in my current game, Gilgamesh created a colony. Louis accepted a voluntary vassal. neither one of them is getting a "-fear our rivals" from any AI. but none of the AIs are friendly towards either of them, or either vassal (most are cautious/pleased, but one AI is annoyed with Louis's vassal). all started out at cautious with Gilga's brand new colony vassal, by definition. i know they do sometimes apply the penalty to each other.
i did a test and created a 2-city colony on an island. i got an instant -2 with everyone. creating a second colony brought the penalty up to -3. creating a third colony was a freebie, the penalty didn't change, still -3. DPs work the same way there too, often it's "buy one, the next is penalty-free". all non-vassal AIs were pleased/friendly with me before the "fear our rivals" negatives, but Louis's vassal is furious (some grudge about taking his 4 best cities). they started at cautious with my colonies of course. my empire is huge compared with any single AI's empire, even after the colony splits, so maybe they fear my power drastically more than they do each other's?
it makes my brain hurt when i try to sort it all out. often i don't even get a chance to, in a game where i don't go to war or don't take vassals or make colonies. i've watched the penalties more closely in warlords than in BtS.
it may have to do with difficulty, map size, number of civs, game era, and/or the mood of the RNG. it feels like the size of your own empire matters more than map size. game era too maybe, seems like the penalties start out higher when the vassals/colonies are accepted later? but in the gilga/louis example, their vassals are recent so game era hasn't changed, and large empires are more common in later eras so that may just be a side effect of the size thing if it exists. i don't have solid evidence of a darn thing, so i really don't know. but i'd like to.
bonus giggle fact: Louis's new voluntary vassal was B's capitulated vassal earlier (B wasn't getting a "-fear our rivals" back then either"). he broke free from B due to losing more than 50% of his land area, altho he hasn't been in any wars since accepting a master. he didn't have much land left in the first place, and he lost more than half of it due to culture pressure from the cities i captured from him in the war, and the single city his master captured nearby, thanks to the "master gets control of disputed tiles in BFCs" rule.
i don't get the impression it's at all related to how the AI feels about the vassal or about the master. when i've been paying attention to it i get a negative from everybody who's not my vassal if i get a negative at all. i read "our rivals" in that context as "other civs". the exception is that your other vassals don't hold it against you. makes sense: DPs work the same way, anybody in a DP with you doesn't resent you for any DPs you have.
in my current game, Gilgamesh created a colony. Louis accepted a voluntary vassal. neither one of them is getting a "-fear our rivals" from any AI. but none of the AIs are friendly towards either of them, or either vassal (most are cautious/pleased, but one AI is annoyed with Louis's vassal). all started out at cautious with Gilga's brand new colony vassal, by definition. i know they do sometimes apply the penalty to each other.
i did a test and created a 2-city colony on an island. i got an instant -2 with everyone. creating a second colony brought the penalty up to -3. creating a third colony was a freebie, the penalty didn't change, still -3. DPs work the same way there too, often it's "buy one, the next is penalty-free". all non-vassal AIs were pleased/friendly with me before the "fear our rivals" negatives, but Louis's vassal is furious (some grudge about taking his 4 best cities). they started at cautious with my colonies of course. my empire is huge compared with any single AI's empire, even after the colony splits, so maybe they fear my power drastically more than they do each other's?
it makes my brain hurt when i try to sort it all out. often i don't even get a chance to, in a game where i don't go to war or don't take vassals or make colonies. i've watched the penalties more closely in warlords than in BtS.
it may have to do with difficulty, map size, number of civs, game era, and/or the mood of the RNG. it feels like the size of your own empire matters more than map size. game era too maybe, seems like the penalties start out higher when the vassals/colonies are accepted later? but in the gilga/louis example, their vassals are recent so game era hasn't changed, and large empires are more common in later eras so that may just be a side effect of the size thing if it exists. i don't have solid evidence of a darn thing, so i really don't know. but i'd like to.
bonus giggle fact: Louis's new voluntary vassal was B's capitulated vassal earlier (B wasn't getting a "-fear our rivals" back then either"). he broke free from B due to losing more than 50% of his land area, altho he hasn't been in any wars since accepting a master. he didn't have much land left in the first place, and he lost more than half of it due to culture pressure from the cities i captured from him in the war, and the single city his master captured nearby, thanks to the "master gets control of disputed tiles in BFCs" rule.
jkp1187
Unindicted Co-Conspirator
Thanks, KMad. That's what happen when i assume things....
KMadCandy
giggling permanoob
what, that i post a lot of words that partly mean "i don't actually know that you're wrong, it just doesn't match what i've been assuming"? 
the whole thing hurts my brain but i so want to know!
the whole thing hurts my brain but i so want to know!
In my experience (about 10 days and counting...), having a vassal makes everyone who's not your vassal more cautious toward you. In a recent game, Cyrus became my vassal and it gave me a negative modifier with everyone else - even those he and I previously had good relations with.
oedali
King
KMad - your intution was totally correct. I looked into the SDK (my fav thing to do nowadays from my work laptop)
and it's all about one simple function called AI_getRivalVassalAttitude. The negative modifier you get from having vassals is directly and exclusively linked the ratio of you and your vassal's total power in relation to the total power of all civs. (Note power, not score) The formula is:"Fear your vassal" penalty = -6 * (Your team's power / Total power of all civs)
So, if I'm interpreting the code correctly, theoretically one could get as much as -6 from other civs in the marginal case that you and your vassals have all the power in the world (e.g. only remaining civ has one warrior or something like that). Well, actually it would be -5 due to rounding down since the power ratio would be something like 0.999.
This explains how you can get your -2 the first time you create a colony but 0 change after the 2nd: probably the 1st colony is more powerful than the other other one and pushed up your power rating more. Whereas the 2nd one did not add much to it and the value became like 2.8 and got rounded down to 2.
Now imagine a case when a not-so-powerful civ creates a colony or obtains a vassal. If their total power is < 1/6 of total world power, -6 * 1/6 < -1, which gets rounded to 0, so you don't see the modifier.
Also note that "power" takes into account not only military units but military techs as well, so every time you split off a colony from your own cities, you increase your power rating since your colony inherits all your military techs.
Spoiler :
KMadCandy
giggling permanoob
thank you so much!!
oh but that's a very dangerous situation. in that world i wouldn't be able to bribe the one-warrior civ to go to war; every potential target would be my vassal so he'd say "surely you must be joking". so i'd never know if he had enough on his hands right now
!
oh but that's a very dangerous situation. in that world i wouldn't be able to bribe the one-warrior civ to go to war; every potential target would be my vassal so he'd say "surely you must be joking". so i'd never know if he had enough on his hands right now
!
King of Town
Adventuring
I like it, I wish they did that more often. Like you are too scientifically advanced if you are going for a space race. It would mean they would challenge you when more when you are winning
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