India UHV

[chococid]

Okay, I've managed to get the 5 religions. The problem is, my stability nosedives rather quickly, I'm assuming due to the penalty for having non-state religions in cities.

I've tried two different city locations and I have a different savegame shortly after founding Islam in each.


In the screenshot on the left, I can be the first to found Islam without bulbing Divine right, so building the Church of the Nativity could be a good play.

Any suggestions for dealing with the crappy stability and getting the highest population?

If it matters, I'm on the version of Rhye's that comes with BTS.

 

[blizzrd]

Your version does matter, there have been some tweaks for stability in the recent patches. You should probably update?

To get the population up, a good site is on the island of Jakarta (I think the city is called Jayakarta) with lots of food resources all around you. Putting the whip away will assist also, but this is more obvious. I prefer your city placement in the first screenshot to get maximum population going. The best location at the Ganges delta is on the coast, but in your second screenshot this would leave the Rice unworked due to your placement of Delhi slightly further to the west of the start tile. The city at the Ganges mouth will be far bigger for you than the one down at the southern tip of India if you work all those Calendar-enabled food resources. I also prefer to place an Indian city in reach of the Rice just to the north of Pagan, which is a poorer site choice. This Burmese city can also get quite large once it takes in the Rice.

To help with stability, get contact with as many European civs as you can and get open borders agreements. I try to keep a Caravel or two moving around the North Sea and Mediteranean for this purpose. Trade resources with other civs like they are going out of fashion, even if it doesn't give you a profit (such as Fish for Clam), because trading resources also helps to increase your stability.

Try and stabilise your neighbours, where you can. If the Khmer are unstable, "help" them to collapse with a few well placed Elephants. Unstable neighbours are bad for your stability. Or if they are your vassals, gift them some techs that will allow them to build their way out of their stability problems (such as techs which will give them more trade options, like Compass, Optics or Astronomy).

Getting to Biology is good to clear some of that accursed Jungle, but this has actually been pushed further down the tech-tree in the later patches (than the one you have been using).

 

[chococid]

Your version does matter, there have been some tweaks for stability in the recent patches. You should probably update?

Can't. I er... borrowed the copy of Civ I'm playing. Yeah.

To get the population up, a good site is on the island of Jakarta (I think the city is called Jayakarta) with lots of food resources all around you. Putting the whip away will assist also, but this is more obvious. I prefer your city placement in the first screenshot to get maximum population going. The best location at the Ganges delta is on the coast, but in your second screenshot this would leave the Rice unworked due to your placement of Delhi slightly further to the west of the start tile.

So I should build Pitikapuram in the game with Takshashila, I take it? Obviously in the other game I decided to make Delhi my quarry city because I wasn't aware how good a location Takshashila is.

The city at the Ganges mouth will be far bigger for you than the one down at the southern tip of India if you work all those Calendar-enabled food resources. I also prefer to place an Indian city in reach of the Rice just to the north of Pagan, which is a poorer site choice. This Burmese city can also get quite large once it takes in the Rice.

I may do that, but building more cities hurts my stability doesn't it? In the Takshashila game I'm already at unstable. Or does filling out the empire boost it?

To help with stability, get contact with as many European civs as you can and get open borders agreements. I try to keep a Caravel or two moving around the North Sea and Mediteranean for this purpose. Trade resources with other civs like they are going out of fashion, even if it doesn't give you a profit (such as Fish for Clam), because trading resources also helps to increase your stability.

Ah, I wasn't aware of that. I'll be sure to trade like mad then.

Try and stabilise your neighbours, where you can. If the Khmer are unstable, "help" them to collapse with a few well placed Elephants. Unstable neighbours are bad for your stability. Or if they are your vassals, gift them some techs that will allow them to build their way out of their stability problems (such as techs which will give them more trade options, like Compass, Optics or Astronomy).

I don't have any vassals, and my military in the Takshashila game is utterly pathetic. I could spend 20-30 turns after I get Divine Right going for all the usual suspects (Swordsmen etc) and I can even get up to War Elephants at one point. The problem is I'd probably be better off hitting Persia and trying to get them to capitulate for the purpose of Viceroyalty, but again, if I'm already unstable I'm not sure how much expansion I can even do.

Getting to Biology is good to clear some of that accursed Jungle, but this has actually been pushed further down the tech-tree in the later patches (than the one you have been using).

How the hell do you get to Biology far enough before 1200 AD to matter?


In case it isn't obvious, I only have a sort of tangential idea of how stability works, because the stupid thing doesn't tell me ANYTHING. I really wish there was something like the diplomacy thing, "-2 Your empire is beyond historical borders" or whatever.

 

[mushyman]

Can't. I er... borrowed the copy of Civ I'm playing. Yeah.

Naughty! You should buy a copy, it is worth the money.
Although you might be able to get the BTS patch from here... not an excuse though

I may do that, but building more cities hurts my stability doesn't it? In the Takshashila game I'm already at unstable. Or does filling out the empire boost it?

Not exactly, it only hurts stability if you build outside your core area. Building inside your historical area is actually a stability boost, especially up to around 10 cities (which is way more than you need).

In case it isn't obvious, I only have a sort of tangential idea of how stability works, because the stupid thing doesn't tell me ANYTHING. I really wish there was something like the diplomacy thing, "-2 Your empire is beyond historical borders" or whatever.

Ah, it was ever thus. Rhye prefers to keep some mystery with the stability system - dig up the old threads if you want to read the discussion. The best thing you can do is read the stability guide on the wiki, as it really helps a lot.

Regarding teching for Divine Right - ok, you can research it, but do you want to? Surely it would be better to leave it for bulbing and fill all those tech gaps that you missed beelining for the religious techs. This should help stability a bit as well, as most techs give a small stability boost when researched. Regarding city placement, I'm no expert, but the Patna area does grow very quickly once the bananas are worked. In my recent (and only) successful Indian game I had four cities by the time I got my golden age, and built another three I think.

 

[blizzrd]

So I should build Pitikapuram in the game with Takshashila, I take it?

Not sure what the name of the city is, but it is on the cleared grassland tile on the coast at the mouth of the Ganges. In the 600AD start, this city is called Patna but is not on the coast - which is much poorer as a location.

I may do that, but building more cities hurts my stability doesn't it? In the Takshashila game I'm already at unstable. Or does filling out the empire boost it?

There is a (very minor) stability penalty for each city that you control. This penalty is significantly increased if the location is outside your civ's "core area" (historical limits of expansion) and significantly increased again if the city is in another civ's core area. There's more to it than just this, but that is how I basically understand it to work.

But there is a bonus to your expansion stability component for adding territory to your empire. I believe this outweighs the penalty (certainly for cities within your core area) for each city though.

When you say that you are unstable, what components of stability does the F2 screen indicate are less than 3 stars?

One large stability problem for India I forgot to mention earlier is that if you have adopted a state religion, each other religion in any of your cities adds to the instability. The solution for India: Free Religion. Get it via the Shwedagon Paya if you can't research FR faster than you are becoming unstable.

I don't have any vassals, and my military in the Takshashila game is utterly pathetic. I could spend 20-30 turns after I get Divine Right going for all the usual suspects (Swordsmen etc) and I can even get up to War Elephants at one point. The problem is I'd probably be better off hitting Persia and trying to get them to capitulate for the purpose of Viceroyalty, but again, if I'm already unstable I'm not sure how much expansion I can even do.

India only needs two types of units: cheap defenders and elephants. You neither need nor should expand into Persia in my opinion. Try to take up the space between yourself and the Khmer instead and the southern bits of India. Then look to Java (sorry I called the island Jakarta before by mistake) or Singapore or even Australia after that. Elephants are all that are required to control and/or remove the independents/Khmers from these areas.

How the hell do you get to Biology far enough before 1200 AD to matter?

You don't, sorry. I played on after my Indian UHV to eventually getting a Diplomatic victory with the UN after finishing the Tech tree, so I made a priority of Biology to clear away all that jungle and the negative effects it gives (mainly health issues).

In case it isn't obvious, I only have a sort of tangential idea of how stability works, because the stupid thing doesn't tell me ANYTHING. I really wish there was something like the diplomacy thing, "-2 Your empire is beyond historical borders" or whatever.

Stability could be explained in more detail, true, but part of the experience of RFC I found was establishing what did and didn't help me to stabilize.

 

[chococid]

Regarding teching for Divine Right - ok, you can research it, but do you want to? Surely it would be better to leave it for bulbing and fill all those tech gaps that you missed beelining for the religious techs. This should help stability a bit as well, as most techs give a small stability boost when researched. Regarding city placement, I'm no expert, but the Patna area does grow very quickly once the bananas are worked. In my recent (and only) successful Indian game I had four cities by the time I got my golden age, and built another three I think.

You have to research it. A bulb alone doesn't do the whole thing. I already bulbed it once to take off some 80 turns of the ~100 turn research. I'm not sure I want to bulb a measly 6-7 turns when I can build the Church of the Nativity.


I don't think building the Shwedagon Paya is possible at this point in either game. I'll have to doublecheck.

And I'll try popping out a pair of settlers in the 2-city game to try to stabilize it up. I think it's cities and economy that have 2-stars, I'll check again tomorrow or saturday, I'm getting some sleep.

 

[blizzrd]

I don't think building the Shwedagon Paya is possible at this point in either game. I'll have to doublecheck.

You could be right. I finished my Indian UHV quite some time ago, I think it was the 3rd one I attempted. I've certainly learnt a lot since then about RFC trying the other civs too.

The cities component I think takes a hit for the state religion penalty. Did you adopt any of the 5 religions along the way to your saves? I'd be inclined to think that doing so for the benefit of Organised religion is highly questionable, but for Pacifism I could understand it.

Anyways, good luck with the stability.

 

[mushyman]

You have to research it. A bulb alone doesn't do the whole thing. I already bulbed it once to take off some 80 turns of the ~100 turn research. I'm not sure I want to bulb a measly 6-7 turns when I can build the Church of the Nativity.

You're right, it takes two GPs plus about half a dozen extra turns. At this point yes I agree, building a shrine is the way forward. This is more for if you decide to reload/try again
IMHO I think it's better to ignore Divine Right except for the 6-7 turns necessary, and double bulb it while filling in all those other techs.

I don't think building the Shwedagon Paya is possible at this point in either game. I'll have to doublecheck.

And I'll try popping out a pair of settlers in the 2-city game to try to stabilize it up. I think it's cities and economy that have 2-stars, I'll check again tomorrow or saturday, I'm getting some sleep.

It's probably best not to pick a state religion for as long as possible, maybe just once you know Persia's religion (as suggested in previous discussions). Good luck anyway!

 

[AnotherPacifist]

Not sure what the name of the city is, but it is on the cleared grassland tile on the coast at the mouth of the Ganges. In the 600AD start, this city is called Patna but is not on the coast - which is much poorer as a location.

It's Dhaka (in modern Bangladesh), better in terms of being on the coast for trade, the amount of water it sees is not as much, and Patna gets more resources up in Tibet.