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India

Discussion in 'Leader Balance' started by Funak, Oct 15, 2014.

  1. Funak

    Funak Chieftain

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    UA-Food buildings add 1 Population when constructed (possible 6 on a coastal city)

    I think we have more fun ways to deal with this. My suggestion would be something like "add X food and faith to a city every time it grows" where x is the pop it grows to. If this is too weak a small "food-save"(like an aqueduct but maybe just 5%) could be added aswell. This would give the effect of indian cities growing faster but would also support their religious focus which is thematic imo.

    Unique Building: Indus Sanitation - +3 happiness on aqueduct

    No idea of the idea behind this building, but it probably needs to be adjusted to CPP-happiniess-values maybe 1 global happiness -1 poverty and illiteracy?

    Unique Building: Vedi - Shrine provides instant faith

    Never been a huge fan of the instant-reward buildings in CEP, I'm fine with a shrine-replacement but I'd rather see some bonuses on the building rather than giving instant rewards for compleating it.
     
  2. mitsho

    mitsho Chieftain

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    I don't have a problem with the UA, but "faith and food" on city growth seems fine. The nice thing with this idea is that it makes cities grow fast from pop 1 to say 6. The more food you need to grow, the less useful is the "instant" gifted food. That makes india a "wide civs with lots of population in their cities". I like that a lot.

    the Vedi makes India a religious civ which is okay from a historical point of view, but I find it quite boring. There are also a lot of shrine UB's already. I'd rather have it be a granary or something from the late game.

    Or a Unique Unit again.

    The civ certainly needs the happiness due to the extra population, but I can see a UB that just lowers happiness treshholds across the bord by 5 (10?) %. Whether this is the Indus Sanitation of the Vedi doesn't really matter, no?

    Also you forgot that India starts with a worker instead of with a warrior, no?
     
  3. Funak

    Funak Chieftain

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    It also gives India a somewhat religious focus without forcing us to keep the Vedi.

    Agreed, a unique granary would be nice, a unit would also be nice. Never cared much for the elephant, and his upgradepath was terrible so I would prefer something else :D.
    Another idea could be to make the elephant a meleeunit instead, having some fat defensive promotions that carried over to the knight when upgraded, something of a reverse camelarcher/keshik? :D. No idea if that would be good at all however, India doesn't really feel like the early rusher, and melee elephants for defense would be pretty useless. So another building would probably be smarter? Maybe a granary with that mini aqueduct effect mentioned earlier? Or anything else really

    The indus sanitation already gives happiness, and I don't see a reason to drop it, maybe lower it a bit to balance it out, but thats it.

    I was hoping everyone else would forget aswell, I don't really like that idea at all. Startingunits feels like a terrible thing to mess with, but if people want it in there then by all means :D
     
  4. Lord Tirian

    Lord Tirian Erratic Poster

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    Why not keep the Mughal fort around? Culture bonuses are always welcome and while the Mughal fort isn't the most interesting UB, I find it solid enough - and more interesting (and versatile) than the Vedi.

    Culture and defence help with unhappiness and fits the play style reasonably well, we could even improve a bit upon the unhappiness reduction to drive that home.
     
  5. Funak

    Funak Chieftain

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    I'm completely fine with a UB castle, maybe not exactly the same stats as the old Mughal (because that one was kinda iffy) but with the general improvement to walls and castles in CPP a UB castle should work just fine.

    Might even more the bonuses around and have the castle give happiness while the Indus sanitation gives something growth-related? Again I have no real idea what a Indus sanitation actually was but from the name of it, it sounds like it could help growth? :D
     
  6. Lord Tirian

    Lord Tirian Erratic Poster

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    Cool. I'm also kind of thinking from an art point of view, I'd like the CPP to "feel like vanilla" in terms of production quality, keeping Firaxis art where possible plays into this - why change away from a perfectly fine concept?
    It probably refers to the early sanitation systems found in the Indus Valley (if we went by historical "accuracy", it would replace the granary, though, not aqueducts, since it's really ancient), so making it growth-related makes perfect sense.

    Could do with a better name, though... something like "Indus Waterworks" but that still sounds clunky.
     
  7. Funak

    Funak Chieftain

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    Yeah I actually read that article after I wrote my comment, seemed really cool actually. But it was a watersystem, meaning it should probably be a aqueduct replacement, but the era is completely off :D. And no I don't think a aqueduct UB with ancientera-requirement is a good idea, so don't even ask :D
     
  8. Gazebo

    Gazebo Lord of the Community Patch

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    I removed the Mughal Fort and added in the Indus Canal, which boosts growth and production a bit more than the Aqueduct. Not the strongest building, however – it may need help in the near future.

    The new Indian UA is, however, very useful – a flat % reduce to Poverty and Illiteracy means that Indian cities will be able to grow much more quickly without outpacing local yield-related happiness capacity. This is pretty big, and helps India regardless of playstyle. We can tweak the Indus Canal to make it more interesting, however their UA is solid.

    G
     
  9. Funak

    Funak Chieftain

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    I was kinda hoping that UA was a placeholder, it sounds solid but extremely boring.
    I thought my food/faith when city grows bonus was actually pretty solid and more fun than this. Unhappiness reduction could be moved to the UB instead since UBs aren't really meant to be fun, just good :D
     
  10. CunningGabe

    CunningGabe Chieftain

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    My main issue is that it is not immediately apparent to me what the UA means. Does a 20% reduction in poverty mean that the thresholds are decreased by 20%? Or do you determine how much unhappiness you should have from poverty as usual, and then just reduce it by 20%? Or something different?

    I do agree with Funak's general sentiment that UAs should sound fun. Even if this UA is solid, it doesn't sound solid to me. Maybe that will change as I play with the new happiness system more, but I think we want something a little splashier.

    I actually really liked the CEP UA, but maybe that wouldn't work well with the new happiness system. Faith and food on city growth does sound kind of fun, and quite useful even early on.
     
  11. Funak

    Funak Chieftain

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    I think the general idea would be something that makes your cities grow faster.
    There are plenty of ways of doing that really
    1. food based on pop when growing(my suggestion)
    2. mini aqueduct effect
    3. %bonus growth/food
    4. plus pop when you do something(cep)
    5. plus food from some specific tile/building/improvement/specialists
    6. %less food required to grow (No idea if that is even possible)
    There are probably more of them but I'm too stupid to think of something.
    Anyways of those 5 I would say that my suggestion, nr 1. is the most interesting. It is probably the worst one since foodrequirement for the next pop isn't linear (I think anyways).
    This is still a pretty passive effect, which is good because the AI can probably handle it, but bad because it is boring for players.
    The added faith ontop of the food is there because it makes sense historically.

    If this is too strong one could adjust the numbers, and if it is far too weak something else could be added.
     
  12. void_genesis

    void_genesis Chieftain

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    What about +x food in all cities when a new tile is claimed. This is active and fun for the player but the AI should be able to handle it since they expand anyway. The player can gain new tiles by gold, culture, policies, wonders or just plain settling new cities. It can be adapted to a wide or tall strategy (though happiness as always will limit expansion at some point).
     
  13. Gazebo

    Gazebo Lord of the Community Patch

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    I'd like to see India move in a religious direction. Perhaps something a bit more unique that focuses on fostering a diversity of religions in all of your cities. We might give India the no religious unrest feature of the Byzantines, and combine that with a bonus to culture and/or tourism from religious diversity. We could also use Whoward's add on that lets a civ pick from all possible beliefs, even pantheons, when founding a faith.

    G
     
  14. void_genesis

    void_genesis Chieftain

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    If you did want to go for religious diversity then you need a mechanism the player can actively use since waiting for the AI to do it is too hit and miss. Maybe a reverse missionary that collects the religion of others, though The AI wouldnt be able to handle that. Maybe religion spreads faster to Indian cities, and the less common the religion in the city the faster it spreads. You could then actively manage this by adjusting trade routes in various cities. The AI would still struggle to strategise well but would get the bonus to some extent. Couple this with a UA that allows you to get the effect of multiple pantheons (extend to a third most popular one?) and it could be really powerful and fun.
     
  15. Finarvi

    Finarvi Chieftain

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    I think that Gandhi's abillity to found pantheon right after beginning isn't best idea. I have few arguments why.

    1. If you play a map when someone found a pantheon just after start then you know that there is Gandhi in game and there is no surprise finding him.
    2. It's not very good to have pantheon from the beginning because you may not know which believs are needed. Espacially with latest patch where you see less resources from the beginning.
    3. It makes shrine unnecessary for some part of the game.

    I'd change this abillity to something else. I don't know, maybe abillity that faith is added to border growth rate?
     
  16. Funak

    Funak Chieftain

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    I personally think the ability is great, it gives you a headstart that may or may not be enough to beat the celts given your circumstances, it is unique, and it gives you the ability to change your playstyle depending on your situation.
     
  17. Stalker0

    Stalker0 Baller Magnus

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    So I took India out for a test drive. My thoughts:

    1) UU - Solid unit, gets good mileage.
    2) UB -Very nice and thematic.
    3) UA - The early pantheon is a fun and unique element for Ghandi.

    As for the no missionary, double pressure....in my first go around I found it surprisingly weak. Normally after I found my religion, I use a cheap missionary to get my religion to my other main cities. From there, it takes care of itself and spreads to my other cities fairly easily.

    Without that, I found religion spread to be at a glacial pace, even with trade routes and the grand temple. Its 1400 AD and I still have some of my cities that aren't on my own religion, let alone dreaming of converting others.

    So that has been a surprise, I thought such a high religious pressure would have dominated the continent, but I am just not finding it the case.
     
  18. Strec

    Strec Chieftain

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    Tryed some starts with India :

    UA : very good, dedicated to religion and a few big cities, at least it's a clear civilization, we know where we go.
    UU : no proble, good defense unit (I can't imagine Gandhi have military attack units :p ) enought quick to move in defense and strong
    UB : very good IF you have the needed tiles, else become medium. Perhaps the +1 food could apply on marsh, so it would have a very good sinergy with the pantheon 'Purfying Waters'

    So the only big problem I see is the use of the 4th circle of city tiles, it's very long to have a city growing and if you have invasive neighbors it's impossible.
    To counter this I see only 2 possibilities :
    • Getting the Might policy but it doesn't fit in my mind with India
    • Getting the pantheon increasing growing by 20% but you wont have a religion because it's too slow.

    I think it's really a problem and a break on the ability to use the 4th ring so a break to growing.

    Perhaps it would be possible to gain faith when we buy tiles, like Russia gain science, what do you think of that Gazebo?


    Note to Stalker0 : you may use the Whoward mod 'Religious Settlers' which permit to 'embark' their religion which is logical. It works very well with CBP.
     
  19. Funak

    Funak Chieftain

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    I don't know why (laziness probably :D) but this feels a lot more punishing now that missionaries can automate :D.
    Other than that after removing E&D and their two extremely powerful Gandhi unique decisions, the whole civ just feels really lackluster.

    I'd like to point out that this is probably one of the strongest unique units for taking cities based proportionally to its era (The atlatlist might compete).

    I actually find this UB really lackluster, the dependency on floodplains feels kinda weird since India doesn't have startingbias for that. The bonus yields are nice, and the extra 5% aqueduct effect feels pretty random.


    Eh, did I miss something here? I have no idea what you're talking about at all. 4th circle?
     
  20. Strec

    Strec Chieftain

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    Oups, I think it is managed by another Howard's mod so don't take care of that, I remove!

    But the proposal to add the ability to gain faith when buying tiles is interestings anymore and the +1 food on marsh more than on flood plains too :p

    edit: yes EventDecision make the India very interesting to play :)
     

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