PapaRockett
Prince
- Joined
- Jun 29, 2016
- Messages
- 435
Just curious, how does having forest and a mountain affect any religious pressure?
India
- Thread starter Funak
- Start date
tu_79
Deity
It increases pathfinding distance.
More context.
Religion spreads a certain "walking distance" from a city. Just as forest slows down a units speed, it also reduces the distance religion spreads
Giza
Chieftain
I finished playing a game with India recently. The UA is very good in the late game, especially after picking the Universal Healthcare tenet (freedom). I had a capital with 81 pop and over 1000 production. My secondary cities had at least 40. One AI (Poland) was ahead of me in the modern era, but I managed to skip over him in the late game (he also went on a rampage where he conquered 10 cities in a few turns, which seems to have slowed down his science). I spread my religion very fast using great prophets and religious pressure. I had neighbors that did not found, so I spread my religion ASAP. I also managed to get a favorable vote for world religion in the world congress (thanks Austria). I also got the Sainthood enhancer belief (got +100 science/culture in my capital at one time).
I don't like is the UU though. I don't find it to be a good unit, since I find mounted ranged units to be support units at best, and the fact that it has less mobility and cannot move after attack really removes the advantages of mounted ranged units. It also comes at a time when you need a good unit to defend (i find that AI likes to go to war at gunpowder). I was lucky to have peaceful neighbors (even the Zulu, but they were very weak in the early/mid game). If the AI attacked me, I was done for.
Basically, playing India is hard since the UA (more pressure) depends on whether your neighbors found a religion. Also, you are not protected from well timed attacks. You are weak in the early game and the extra growth tends to create unhappiness. It's a fun civ to play though because it has a really distinct feeling to it.
I don't like is the UU though. I don't find it to be a good unit, since I find mounted ranged units to be support units at best, and the fact that it has less mobility and cannot move after attack really removes the advantages of mounted ranged units. It also comes at a time when you need a good unit to defend (i find that AI likes to go to war at gunpowder). I was lucky to have peaceful neighbors (even the Zulu, but they were very weak in the early/mid game). If the AI attacked me, I was done for.
Basically, playing India is hard since the UA (more pressure) depends on whether your neighbors found a religion. Also, you are not protected from well timed attacks. You are weak in the early game and the extra growth tends to create unhappiness. It's a fun civ to play though because it has a really distinct feeling to it.
Gokudo01
Emperor
I have to go down 2 difficulties (from Immortal to king ) to finish a game with india. It was so damn hard. the early game is so damn slow. you get a free pantheon but either you choose one "Get-Go" or you choose something you will not be able to use for 20-30 turns.
The early pressure is abysmal so you have an hard time to convert your other cities. you can't choose any founder which works with spreading and you will not get many yields from founder which are linked to population.
All in all, I didn't have a good time, moreover in 3 starts, I've never got floodplains. My start with progress was better than with tradition. I was able to get faster religion, it was easier to increase the religion pressure with early road ( that you can easily afford with progress ) but I was not a religious powerhouse.
The early pressure is abysmal so you have an hard time to convert your other cities. you can't choose any founder which works with spreading and you will not get many yields from founder which are linked to population.
All in all, I didn't have a good time, moreover in 3 starts, I've never got floodplains. My start with progress was better than with tradition. I was able to get faster religion, it was easier to increase the religion pressure with early road ( that you can easily afford with progress ) but I was not a religious powerhouse.
Kel A
Chieftain
- Joined
- Jun 2, 2015
- Messages
- 11
I never seem to know what pantheon to go for with India. I heard God of Expanse is best, but I dunno. Most pantheons just aren't made for turn 1 picks unless you're the Celts.
When I don't know what civ to play, I come to forums and play whoever is being called weak. So I play India a lot. A few months ago I really do think he was a top tier civ, but there have been so many updates to religion which all punished his lack of missionaries, the most recent being the founder reworks.
The early pantheon isn't even close to being worth not having missionaries anymore. Great prophets are incredibly overpriced as a tool to spread religion, even if you take that enhancer which upgrades them (and that requires a great prophet to get)
I think he has grassland start bias, which is pretty much the exact terrain you don't want to be on. No floodplains, no wheat, and your luxuries usually won't cooperate with any pantheons.
The early pantheon isn't even close to being worth not having missionaries anymore. Great prophets are incredibly overpriced as a tool to spread religion, even if you take that enhancer which upgrades them (and that requires a great prophet to get)
I think he has grassland start bias, which is pretty much the exact terrain you don't want to be on. No floodplains, no wheat, and your luxuries usually won't cooperate with any pantheons.
Your pantheon might not do much turn 1, but you are guaranteed to get it (AI can't take it first) and it lets you use alternate build orders. Worker first can be very strong with certain pantheons, like the camp or desert buffs.
LukaSlovenia29
Emperor
- Joined
- Mar 13, 2016
- Messages
- 1,500
Agreed, lack of missionaries renders the religion aspect of the game so significantly harder that it would merit a strong unique element somewhere to compensate for the lack of religion benefits, but I'm not seeing it in the current India uniques. If we keep the "no missionaries", then maybe give India a unique building (mausoleum?) instead of a unique unit. It would provide an interesting option of being much worse religion-wise, but being the only civ in the game with a unique building and a unique improvement.
But I'd rather scrap the "no missionaries" part and rebuild the UA from scratch.
But I'd rather scrap the "no missionaries" part and rebuild the UA from scratch.
tu_79
Deity
Yes, probably. But it needs more players for it to be noticed. My experience with India was awful. Perhaps in the late game, her extra food can make India stand among the top civs... if she survives. But the whole religious game is ruined.Gee, wasn't this exactly what I said months ago?
I can't remember if I proposed this before, but India would be more realistic, and probably fun, if she is designed for syncretism. Renouncing all founder beliefs, and just letting the UA grant extra bonuses for each religion/pantheon in the empire, in addition to no religious unhappiness. Missionaries would be needed if the player wishes to maxim that bonus.
UA (Syncretism): India cannot found a religion. Get +1 happiness (+something else) in every city for each religion/pantheon followed in that city. Erosion from spreading and heresy unhappiness are halved. Spreading to owned cities grants faith and GAP.
The idea is that India gets her pantheon like all others, and can produce missionaries again. She can get her founding religion only by usurping another. After India gets her pantheon, she will be converted by foreign religions in some cities, but followers of her founding pantheon will remain. Once some cities become religious, India can send missionaries and, after the founder enhances his religion, inquisitors. The player will try to let some other religions spread into the empire, blocking here and helping to spread there. The faith from spreading helps India to abuse missionaries and change religious majorities, useful for example when trying to get more faith buildings, or after an usurpation. Halved erosion and heresy helps to keep more different beliefs in each city.
India can play tall, for the extra food into specialists, or can play wide and aggressive thanks to the extra happiness, while saving faith points for Great People. The backside is that she can't choose which religions are going to be spread into her and that the starting pantheon is to be lost.
Gokudo01
Emperor
both changes to passive religion pressure and founder beliefs have hit india, really hard. I don t know if i felt weak like this before but as it stands now its not good at all.And please, if its not already done, give it flood plain desert biasGee, wasn't this exactly what I said months ago?
For me, the founder belief changes was what really put him over the edge. It wasn't just founder beliefs either, to the glory of god is also now dependant on # of cities. And overall founder beliefs are stronger, so while every other civ is getting more from it, you are getting less.Gee, wasn't this exactly what I said months ago?
But I'll give credit where it is deserved, your comments are more and more accurate each patch. I do feel like this thread has repeated itself for a while without any changes. I'll point this out again, great prophets are awful for their cost, and this hurts India more than other civs.
IDK if he should have desert, because India isn't really known for desert. I'd give him something like avoid tundra. He can still do really well without floodplains. Grassland is awful for him though, he loves wheat and plains farms are better than grassland for his strategy. It also pushes you towards jungle and plantations
The other thing is you could make the Naga Mala come earlier. Its art uses bow and arrow so it would make sense for him to a skirmisher or heavy skirmisher instead of a curaisser.
The solution that I've been testing for India is keeping everything the same as it is now, except that I've halved Great Prophet costs for them. India founds early, and relies on Great Prophets instead of Missionaries. I like the theme (and the fact that India joins Byzantium as one of the few civs that can build around Holy Sites) and the potency of it.
G
G
I'd like this 100 times if I could
Could work, worth a try at least.
tu_79
Deity
Could you name that first prophet? Maybe Buddha?
Now that would be weird...
Gokudo01
Emperor
I'm not an expert but isn't the first religion in india, Hinduism ? or Buddhism came first
ps : it's a question, not a passive aggressive comment neither sarcasm
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