India

[Stalker0]

I think if the Naga was put back in its normal place, that's a solid start. Its still a very strong unit, but when fighting its contempories its not nearly as strong as when its trouncing around old units.

 

[pineappledan]

What if instead of moving nagas back, it had some of its CS lowered, and chemistry had compass added as a prereq? Or, if the tech tree is immutable, naga could be moved to astronomy, so it is on a tech with 2 prereqs, and isn’t so rushable

The problem isn’t moving naga forward, it’s moving naga forward to Chemistry, a supremely rushable tech

 

[CrazyG]

The problem isn’t moving naga forward, it’s moving naga forward to Chemistry, a supremely rushable tech

It might be fair on gunpowder?

Bite,
How much faith does your 15th holy site cost?

 

[pineappledan]

With gunpowder, India has 1 tech with siege, melee, and mounted ranged units. It’s everything a civ needs for a Renaissance conquest on a single tech. Bad idea

 

[CrazyG]

With gunpowder, India has 1 tech with siege, melee, and mounted ranged units. It’s everything a civ needs for a Renaissance conquest on a single tech. Bad idea

I read "siege, melee, and mounted ranged" as "Naga-Mala, Naga-Mala, and Naga-Mala". I won't be building any other units, I assure you (you have a point though because you can upgrade existing swordsmen and trebuchets).

To be honest, if it's on the normal tech I wouldn't be very impressed by the unit, especially if the goal is to redesign it to more defensive, I don't research metallurgy early when playing a peaceful/defensive game. Sometimes I intentionally leave it unresearched so that a spy can steal it.

Would be better to make the Naga-Mala replace something other than a curaisser, such as a chariot archer or skirmisher?

 

[BiteInTheMark]

Another idea out of the blue:
The Naga Malla becomes a normal unit, which can be trained with the help of ivory, like the war elephant in the earlier stages.
And India gets something else, maybe a unique missionary which don't spread religion but do something other stuff?
Just an idea.

 

[chicorbeef]

I think simply reducing the of the Naga to Cuirassier level (32RCS) should be fine. The Naga should be tanky, it doesn't need to be super powerful in ranged combat though (and the -15% penalty already gives an advantage in ranged combat).

Putting it on Gunpowder is also fair.

Another idea out of the blue:
The Naga Malla becomes a normal unit, which can be trained with the help of ivory, like the war elephant in the earlier stages.
And India gets something else, maybe a unique missionary which don't spread religion but do something other stuff?
Just an idea.

A unique missionary would actually be a pretty cool idea for India, though I'm thinking this is mod-mod territory.

 

[Stalker0]

The question is, are we trying to weaken the Naga or change its function?

If its the former, again I would just put it back into the normal tech spot. Then its a very strong cruissiar, but no longer has the "nothing can stop this thing" impact.

If you want to change its function, well realistically considering how passive India is "supposed" to play, they really should have a UI instead of a UU. Like a unique fort (red fort light) type. Personally I'm in favor of just the tech change to keep it simple.

 

[chicorbeef]

The question is, are we trying to weaken the Naga or change its function?

If its the former, again I would just put it back into the normal tech spot. Then its a very strong cruissiar, but no longer has the "nothing can stop this thing" impact.

If you want to change its function, well realistically considering how passive India is "supposed" to play, they really should have a UI instead of a UU. Like a unique fort (red fort light) type. Personally I'm in favor of just the tech change to keep it simple.

The Naga already doesn't have promotions on upgrade, so I need it to be on Gunpowder or Chemistry because I'm not going to be rushing Metallurgy. I think a simple RCS nerf would do the trick, otherwise moving it to Gunpowder which isn't as easy to beeline would be a good move.

 

[BiteInTheMark]

The Naga already doesn't have promotions on upgrade, so I need it to be on Gunpowder or Chemistry because I'm not going to be rushing Metallurgy. I think a simple RCS nerf would do the trick, otherwise moving it to Gunpowder which isn't as easy to beeline would be a good move.

The CS need a nerf too. Any melee attack have to face the feared elephant promoton too, effectivly rise the CS of the Naga Malla to a value of 33.3 (instead the 23 of the cuirassier). Not even the german Panzer has such a CS increase.
I think 25 or 26 should be far enough to make him tanky.

If you want to change its function, well realistically considering how passive India is "supposed" to play, they really should have a UI instead of a UU.

A unique Holy Site would fit thematically and by gameplay.
Maybe something like "increase yields in each adjacent tile by 33-50%", then you would like create religious centers with surrounding high yield tiles, especially GPTI. It would look like a temple area, which were build and used a lot in India. So, it would be historically linked.
Damn, I really like that idea.

 

[phantomaxl1207]

With gunpowder, India has 1 tech with siege, melee, and mounted ranged units. It’s everything a civ needs for a Renaissance conquest on a single tech. Bad idea

Laughs in Ottomans.

It's good to know that Naga-Malas are good now. I still remember people thinking they were a waste of a UU. Now I wish I give them more of a use in my last India game.

 

[pineappledan]

Let’s just stick with the UU we have please? It could be moved anywhere from chariot to cuirassier, though moving it to skirmisher or earlier would break 4UC. Also there is no point discussing a non-military UU; the only civ that doesn’t have a military unit is Venice, and discussing a guru unique missionary is pointless if you aren’t volunteering yourself to supply the art assets.

Laughs in Ottomans.

warmonger civ whose UU actually uses a gun. Different rules. Also, just another argument not to use that tech: there’s another unit that is already moved from metallurgy to gunpowder.
Am I taking crazy pills? What is wrong with moving naga to Astronomy? Why are we even having this conversation?

 

[CrazyG]

The UU should remain the naga-mala, not some holy site missionary nonsense. I think we could try -3 RCS, -3 CS, and move to gunpowder or astronomy.

 

[BiteInTheMark]

Bite,
How much faith does your 15th holy site cost?

Ive checked it, and the cost increase between each prophet increases each time by 300.
Y = 800 + [ ∑(X-1) * 300 ]
The natural cost for the 17th prophet (2 for found and enhance) is 41600, so with the reductions of UA and Prophecy, you would need 20280.

 

[CrazyG]

The natural cost for the 17th prophet (2 for found and enhance) is 41600, so with the reductions of UA and Prophecy, you would need 20280.

I'm ready to end this back and forth as you keep moving the goal posts, but I'm extremely skeptical that holy sites are worth spending that much faith on.

 

[tu_79]

Idea:
Can the great prophet AI evaluate how long would it take to religious pressure to convert a city to decide if it is worth spreading?
That would help India most, but it is useful for all of them.

 

[Gazebo]

Idea:
Can the great prophet AI evaluate how long would it take to religious pressure to convert a city to decide if it is worth spreading?
That would help India most, but it is useful for all of them.

Does that already.

G

 

[Deljade]

It's a bit weird seeing gandhi have so low pop cities in my games. I wish they'd keep their massive food on the UB. Maybe with the 1 hammer to farms instead but that's it. It's very thematic to see India with some massive cities. The AI would have to build them a bit further apart and not the 4 tiles away grid it usually makes. So that they have more tiles to work... with the food

 

[BiteInTheMark]

For some reason, AI cities are much smaller than in the previous versions, even the food cost increase was reverted. It seems that is an overall problem and not an India only problem. But I have to agree, simply changing food into hammers for lakes and oasis seems a bit odd. I think staying with the +2 food like the aquaduct and add maybe +2 gold is a better solution.

 

[JamesNinelives]

Just wanted to share my observations from the games I've played. India as an AI seems to do pretty poorly, which makes me sad. This has been the case across various patches. They always found early, which is nice, and because they start with a pantheon they do OK early-game. But I often find that later on they become targets of warmongers and get eaten into bits. I don't think I've ever played a game where India was in one of the top-ranking civs by score, which suggests to me they could do with at least a little buff somewhere.

I hear that as a player the Naga-Malla is very powerful, but also that Ghandi doesn't use it very well. Personally I'd love it to have a promotion that it doesn't loose on upgrade, even if that meant a lower CS. It would be nice if India's defense force was a little stronger throughout the game rather than just during that one era.

I can still imagine that not making much difference though, given the AI India's tendancy towards peaceableness. What if for example their UB granted Defense to the city it is built in? Or boosted the strength of city defense? I don't really know. I'd just love to see them doing a bit better in the games I play against them.