India

India isn't designed to found every time. It benefits from religion whether it founded or not. Now, what I could do is make it so that you get growth/internal pressure from your pantheon as well, so that if you don't found you won't go w/o your UA for too long.
I thought you did already, so it seems like a sensible change to me
 
India isn't designed to found every time. It benefits from religion whether it founded or not. Now, what I could do is make it so that you get growth/internal pressure from your pantheon as well, so that if you don't found you won't go w/o your UA for too long.
Nothing on defense? India is all about a passive play-style, so I don't see why they shouldn't have a more defense oriented UA.The UU is definitely too late to be very useful.
 
India isn't designed to found every time. It benefits from religion whether it founded or not. Now, what I could do is make it so that you get growth/internal pressure from your pantheon as well, so that if you don't found you won't go w/o your UA for too long.
No civ is designed to found every time (except byzantine of course), but it's pretty clear that block of religious civs (like Ethiopia, Spain, India, Maya, Celts) are designed to found more often than others, and I don't think the current India really does that.
Very few of the pantheons that India can pick actually does anything reasonable before most other civs would have already gotten a pantheon. Yeah sure, they get the first pick, but they also have to blind-pick it, not really knowing what would do better in the game.

All I am asking is that you consider an alternative. I'm not suggesting changing the Indian UA so that it guarantees a religion every game, I'm just asking for a more interesting alternative to the instant-pantheon thing, that probably ends up being worth more than the instant pantheon eventually, but not right off that bat.
 
No civ is designed to found every time (except byzantine of course), but it's pretty clear that block of religious civs (like Ethiopia, Spain, India, Maya, Celts) are designed to found more often than others, and I don't think the current India really does that.
Very few of the pantheons that India can pick actually does anything reasonable before most other civs would have already gotten a pantheon. Yeah sure, they get the first pick, but they also have to blind-pick it, not really knowing what would do better in the game.

All I am asking is that you consider an alternative. I'm not suggesting changing the Indian UA so that it guarantees a religion every game, I'm just asking for a more interesting alternative to the instant-pantheon thing, that probably ends up being worth more than the instant pantheon eventually, but not right off that bat.

I am, and have. The flavor of the UA is something I want to retain.
 
I am, and have. The flavor of the UA is something I want to retain.
Isn't the no-missionary thing already flavor enough?

I'm don't want to fight you over this, but I really don't think the instant pantheon screams India enough that it can't be removed.
 
Isn't the no-missionary thing already flavor enough?

I'm don't want to fight you over this, but I really don't think the instant pantheon screams India enough that it can't be removed.

I don't see the UA as underperforming enough to warrant a full toss out.
 
I don't see the UA as underperforming enough to warrant a full toss out.

It doesn't even remotely warrant that. The instant pantheon is very powerful, and contributes to likely founding, if you want that result. It precludes geographical factors beyond what's visible from settling and the warrior's first move, but those actions alone can reveal enough for an educated guess.

I find India to be one of the most distinctive civs, and very strong in a human's hands. And they are far from the only civ to not perform as well in the hands of the AI.
 
I tested it and it looks like you don't get bonus growth with just a pantheon. This is just another reason to spam faith like crazy; I think applying it to the pantheon would be a decent move. I like that it doesn't buff the later game which is already very powerful.

If you want to found with India you can, guaranteed ability to choose god of the expanse and naturaly liking tradition make him very good. If you choose to not use the guaranteed strategy you cannot complain about missing religion. India can also be a strong cultural civ, starting with God of All Creation lets you get a big social policy lead. Protection is another interesting choice, with Barracks now buffed and more time to build walls it looks better than ever, and starting with that extra point of culture is really nice for Authority.
 
I feel like this discussion has a lot to do with the fact that not Founding is still considered hugely disadvantageous, which I don't really disagree with. Sure, you can theoretically use India's ability even without doing so, but you're in an objectively worse position in that case. The optimal strategy is always to use your Pantheon to attempt to gain a religion and all other outcomes are seen as a failure state. If Expanse is the best way to do this, then Expanse will be seen as the only option.

Part of this is the All or Nothing nature of religion. Even for other Civs, you're expected to use your Pantheon to found, and I wonder if something can't be done about that. If you spend your precious early game production to build a Shrine and then discover you're surrounded by Spain, the Celts, Byzantium, etc, then you have very little ability to recoup your loss.

Maybe what's really needed is some better regular Pantheons that look more like Celtic Pantheons, providing some decent yields aside from Faith for you to use before you're inevitably taken over by a Religion. This would allow you to opt out of the race early on with a consolation prize.
 
Not sure you understand what 'toss out' means.
To discard, to throw away, to dispose of, to forsake, to get rid of?

I think the major difference here is that I don't consider the instant pantheon to be the actual UA, I consider the growth/spread bonus to be the UA, and the free pantheon is just something minor that's tagged on to it to compensate for it being pretty weak early on. And I don't think that free pantheon effect does its job properly, especially after the increased prophet cost made the free pantheon less valuable.
But if you insist on keeping the pantheon-effect, might I suggest a compromise that would at least bump it up to par with how it was pre-nerf? Add a 'gain 5 faith whenever the capital grows' to the existing effect.



CG, if the reason why you consider the Indian UA good is because you're guaranteed to get God of the Expanse, then the main problem here is God of the Expanse, and as far as God of All Creation goes, it doesn't really do anything until the other civs on the map starts founding pantheons, so you're not really in an advantage compared to other civs on that point.
 
Part of this is the All or Nothing nature of religion. Even for other Civs, you're expected to use your Pantheon to found, and I wonder if something can't be done about that. If you spend your precious early game production to build a Shrine and then discover you're surrounded by Spain, the Celts, Byzantium, etc, then you have very little ability to recoup your loss.
I think someone proposed something like having pantheons unlock a building that lets you keep the bonuses on select cities. Can that happen in some way that you can choose where to build it? I know G has been stoic about how it's impossible to keep a pantheon in any way, but if a workaround can be achieved, then losing out on a religion can be a legitimate option. Otherwise it will always be viewed as a failure due to how long it can take to get a religion off someone else. Perhaps a way to encourage the AI to spread their faith towards you?
 
CG, if the reason why you consider the Indian UA good is because you're guaranteed to get God of the Expanse, then the main problem here is God of the Expanse, and as far as God of All Creation goes, it doesn't really do anything until the other civs on the map starts founding pantheons, so you're not really in an advantage compared to other civs on that point.
Its almost like there are multiple strategies for India. It seems to me you just want to complain, I'm trying to help you by offering a strategy that should found almost every time. Apparently you are aware of it but still cannot found as India, it sounds like you are just making poor choices.

I also suggest you try taking God of All because your thoughts on it are totally wrong. Taking tradition's opener 5 turns earlier is worth 10 food and 10 culture, which gives you the later policies earlier which is worth even more yields. The culture snowballs really well and I've never seen God of All available this patch on turn 30, when a typical civ might get to choose their pantheon if shrine first. By that point its potentially earned 100 culture as India. I've used the strategy a bunch of times and it works very well. Grab wonders like Mausoleum and Oracle and Aesthetics to push really far ahead in social policies, the goal is to hit key policies like Universal Healthcare, Exploitation or Academics ASAP. That culture lead and generally strong production from high pop cities also makes economic wonders like Notre Dame or Leaning Tower easy to get.

The thing I've realized with India is you don't need to stack the perfect religion into amazing farmland and synergistic wonders, you have enough late game power that you can take some hits and stay strong.

Maybe what's really needed is some better regular Pantheons that look more like Celtic Pantheons, providing some decent yields aside from Faith for you to use before you're inevitably taken over by a Religion. This would allow you to opt out of the race early on with a consolation prize.
This idea has merit, as right now the only pantheon that is both faith light and impactful early is God of All Creation, maybe Springtime or Festivals can be included. Stuff like God-King is faith light and has potentially big yields, but if you don't get a religion your window to enjoy the benefits is small.
 
I'm in favor of the suggestion to make India's UA work with its pantheon. That solves India's specific dependence on having a religion available to them, whether they found or not. I also like the ability to pick your pantheon from the start and want to see it maintained; it's a neat element and as others have stated there's only a couple of pantheons where revealed resources might otherwise influence your decision.

Given how competitive founding a religion is right now I'd prefer that VP not bake even more inherent early faith into existing civs; give the China's and Shoshones of the world some hope.
 
I'd also be a fan of making the UA work with the pantheon. Seems like a logical thing to do. Doesn't help found, but makes not founding not nearly as bad and slightly improves the early game
 
Its almost like there are multiple strategies for India. It seems to me you just want to complain, I'm trying to help you by offering a strategy that should found almost every time. Apparently you are aware of it but still cannot found as India, it sounds like you are just making poor choices.

I also suggest you try taking God of All because your thoughts on it are totally wrong. Taking tradition's opener 5 turns earlier is worth 10 food and 10 culture, which gives you the later policies earlier which is worth even more yields. The culture snowballs really well and I've never seen God of All available this patch on turn 30, when a typical civ might get to choose their pantheon if shrine first. By that point its potentially earned 100 culture as India. I've used the strategy a bunch of times and it works very well. Grab wonders like Mausoleum and Oracle and Aesthetics to push really far ahead in social policies, the goal is to hit key policies like Universal Healthcare, Exploitation or Academics ASAP. That culture lead and generally strong production from high pop cities also makes economic wonders like Notre Dame or Leaning Tower easy to get.

The thing I've realized with India is you don't need to stack the perfect religion into amazing farmland and synergistic wonders, you have enough late game power that you can take some hits and stay strong.


This idea has merit, as right now the only pantheon that is both faith light and impactful early is God of All Creation, maybe Springtime or Festivals can be included. Stuff like God-King is faith light and has potentially big yields, but if you don't get a religion your window to enjoy the benefits is small.
I can definitely found as India if I got for God of the Expanse, I can found as any civ if I go for God of the Expanse. I'm saying that's a poor excuse for a religious civ. And I'm also saying that since the Indian AI doesn't pick God of the Expanse as India, they never found a religion.
 
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