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Individualism and liberty

Discussion in 'Off-Topic' started by RedRalph, Jul 27, 2009.

  1. RedRalph

    RedRalph Deity

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    What do they mean to you? Give examples of modern-day individualism and liberty, areas where you think they are inadequate, areas you think are well served in these senses
     
  2. Brighteye

    Brighteye intuitively Bayesian

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    Modern day individualism is demonstrated by our politicians. We have Cameron, whose character is as solid as a puff of hot air, and which is itself a copy of Saint Blair's. We have Clegg, who hasn't got one.
    We have Gordon Brown, whose attempt to be different was ridiculed by the press until he gave up and started trying to smile, at which point they ridiculed him for that too.
     
  3. Grey Fox

    Grey Fox Master of Points

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    Modern day individualism means you got all the liberty you want to dress and behave like everyone else.
     
  4. RedRalph

    RedRalph Deity

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    Do you think they are over-rated as concepts? What are the bad aspects of them?
     
  5. Grey Fox

    Grey Fox Master of Points

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    We might have liberty today, but many young people, and I am talking 20-30 have 0% financial freedom. It's hard to get a job, and even harder if you don't have the right education. You get stuck in programs where you are basically forced to take any job you are offered, forced to move if that means a job, and basically forced to take any internship you get if you want to get continued help. Meaning you work for free to get welfare.
    Or you're basically forced to go to College, where you basically have to take a student loan. College might be free here, but living isn't. And once you are done you have to start paying back the loan within a year, and finish paying it back within 20 years.

    This is Sweden I am talking about. And how I perceive it from my experience and those around me, and through what I gather from various media.
     
  6. Winner

    Winner Diverse in Unity

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    So, it would be better if the state told you "you've lost a job? Tough luck, you're not getting any money from us, get out!"

    In the country where I live, government hands out free money to just about everybody who doesn't want to work. Might be why we haven't had a balanced budget in the last... 12 years. It's always in red numbers and it's getting worse, because the gov. is too generous.
     
  7. Grey Fox

    Grey Fox Master of Points

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    I'm not saying it should. I'm just describing a situation I don't see getting better any time soon.
    Something which in a way limits the perceived liberty of our time.

    EDIT: and btw, I have a job now, after a few years of unemployment working as an intern at several companies who never intended to hire me, I got an internship at a project in my city hall. 4 Months of internship and then I got a 6 month employment. I'm not sure what to do if I don't get an extension though.
     
  8. Winner

    Winner Diverse in Unity

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    Well, you can't have both. If you think that there should be some sort of social safety net, then there must be rules preventing people from abusing it.

    Or you can adopt the "19th century capitalism" mode - "let the poor starve, it's what they deserve". I'd rather have your (Swedish) system, thanks ;)
     
  9. Grey Fox

    Grey Fox Master of Points

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    I know, I never said I didn't want the rules.
    And yeah, I feel lucky to have been born here. :)
     
  10. Yeekim

    Yeekim Deity

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    Yup. There is no financial liberty around here as well. You basically have to go to work if you want to make money. :wow::scared:
    I mean, did you really meant this like a rant it came across as?
    EDIT:
    Ok, you clarified it.
     
  11. amadeus

    amadeus めっちゃしんどい

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    It means the freedom to be left alone and not be harassed by people with even the best of intentions.

    Economic: Hong Kong, Singapore
    Political: most major industrialized countries.

    Economic.

    Political.
     
  12. Perfection

    Perfection The Great Head.

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    Individualism is being a dick to everyone else.

    Liberty is the freedom to be individualistic.
     
  13. RedRalph

    RedRalph Deity

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    Do you value the freedom to act as you please (lets say, in a manner that harms the environment, or the health of others) is more important than the good of many?
     
  14. Perfection

    Perfection The Great Head.

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    For me, yes, but that's because I'm a selfish dick.
     
  15. Grey Fox

    Grey Fox Master of Points

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    The freedom to act as you please should be complemented with good manners and common sense.
    (as well as empathy and sympathy for your fellow man.)
     
  16. Princeps

    Princeps More bombs than God

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    I think that the notion of a soverign individual is a political myth. Liberty is a state where a person can enforce his restrictions on others, or others are restricted by an institution for his benefit, guaranteeing him personal freedom, protection and entitlement that confer him control over his life and estate.
     
  17. RedRalph

    RedRalph Deity

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    So do I as it happens, but a lot of people don't
     
  18. Seapeople

    Seapeople Chieftain

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    Others should have the freedom to say and do anything they want as long as I agree with it.
     
  19. amadeus

    amadeus めっちゃしんどい

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    Liberty does not mean anarchy, and anarchy does not mean the wanton destruction of other human life.

    I hate to be the one that has to cry "fascist!" but it seems like a fitting title... liberty, a state where you can enforce restrictions on others? That's an Orwellian definition if there ever was one.
     
  20. Snorrius

    Snorrius Le libre-penseur

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    If the college is free, can parents help one to pay for living? Or is it possible in Sweden to work part-time while studying in college?
     

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