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Individualism and liberty

Discussion in 'Off-Topic' started by RedRalph, Jul 27, 2009.

  1. Grey Fox

    Grey Fox Master of Points

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    It's possible to work part-time yes, and it's possible to have your parents pay for you. But not everyone is that lucky. In my case my parent(s) was one hard working mother working for near minimum wage which is now a sick-pensioner.
    And I probably wouldn't be able to handle school and work at the same time. Plus there is the whole "getting the job"-part to consider as well.
     
  2. Earthling

    Earthling Deity

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    I'm a strong proponent of all individual liberties, particularly those guaranteed by our United States Constitution. I still regularly canvas for support for the right to own surface to air missiles for both leisure and self-defense. I'm continually haunted by thoughts that myself or my family may be assaulted by Mexican drug cartels in helicopters and demand my Constitutional right to protect myself. I won't be distracted by modern-day consumerism and the urge to splurge in our culture - given the choice between these missiles or a vacation to say, Tahiti, I know what the right call is.
     
  3. Princeps

    Princeps More bombs than God

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    No it doesn't. I support a democratic state and none of my believes are irreconcilable with it.

    Yes, exactly. How else do you preserve your liberty except by restricting others? To have liberty, you need to keep people away from you, your land, your wealth, and so forth.
     
  4. Thoughtful Thug

    Thoughtful Thug Deity

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    I guess liberty in today's world can mean that no matter what rank or station you were born from, you can succeed by climbing from the bottom to the top. Of course it requires luck, a little skill, and hard work.

    Individualism I am not sure and I don't know if one can be truly autonomous unless you live alone in a cave or a remote island as a recluse.
     
  5. amadeus

    amadeus めっちゃしんどい

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    You seem to be supporting a kind of unrestrained mob rule, rather than a democracy... your "democracy" employs the use of force to control segments of society that are unpopular.

    Negative liberties exist to protect your liberty... I don't know of anyone here that would suggest we should have the total freedom to kill, rape, or steal.
     
  6. Yeekim

    Yeekim Deity

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    Nothing simply "exists". Someone has to enforce them.
    Does lobbying for privatization of police count?:mischief:
     
  7. Gustave5436

    Gustave5436 Emperor

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    Not kill or rape, but many would insist that theft, at least in one particular form, is an essential component of liberty.
     
  8. Formaldehyde

    Formaldehyde Both Fair And Balanced

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    That's an odd thing for someone with a crown on his head to be saying.

    Nobody seems to mind individualism and liberty just as long as they happen to completely agree with the opinions of the other person. it happens so frequently that we should come up with new buzzwords for them: Conformant individuality and autocratic liberty. In newspeak, that would be conity and autolib.
     
  9. Ayatollah So

    Ayatollah So the spoof'll set you free

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    Land in particular is a nasty problem for "individualism" as most people, or at least most Americans, conceive it. On the face of it, maximum liberty demands that nobody should interfere with each other's freedom of movement. Which means anyone can go wherever they want - which negates large parts of "land ownership" as we know it.
     
  10. Formaldehyde

    Formaldehyde Both Fair And Balanced

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    AFAIK extremely few Americans think they have the right to trespass on private property, which is what you are apparenty trying to insinuate. And they usually end up in jail.

    Some communities on Long Island specifically prohibit people without permits to park on the streets to restrict their access to the beach. Other communities restrict it by making the beach land itself private, but they are few and far between. For instance, there is no such thing as private beaches in Florida or California. It is all public property.
     
  11. BasketCase

    BasketCase Username sez it all

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    The freedom I consider most important is freedom of thought.

    The freedom to think up and have your own opinions is more important than anything else. Without it we're not really people. But this freedom is inadequately protected. It gets violated every single time some scumbag in CFC calls anybody else an idiot just for having a different opinion.
     
  12. .Shane.

    .Shane. Take it like a voter Retired Moderator

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    The irony is that Americans bloviate ad naseum about liberty and freedom, but have almost no tolerance for true individuality.
     
  13. Formaldehyde

    Formaldehyde Both Fair And Balanced

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    So I guess that means you are opposed to freedom of speech when they are wrong?

    Indeed.

    To understand free speech means freedom to speak what others do not like and even cannot stand to hear? ... Tolerating what you like is hardly a major achievement. Hitler tolerated what he liked. So did Stalin. Idi Amin did too. So did Genghis Khan, the Shah, and Henry Kissinger. Free speech only becomes an issue when someone says what others don't want to hear. Michael Albert
     
  14. Irish Caesar

    Irish Caesar Yellow Jacket

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    I hope you won't mind me asking for a little more detail.

    :)
     
  15. Formaldehyde

    Formaldehyde Both Fair And Balanced

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    Here's an example:

    http://www.onenewsnow.com/Legal/Default.aspx?id=602490

     
  16. BasketCase

    BasketCase Username sez it all

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    Not at all. You're entitled to your wrong opinion.

    What I do NOT have the right to do is call you an idiot for having whatever wrong opinion you happen to have. A hundred years ago, the world's most brilliant people believed time was an absolute. Two hundred years ago, the world's most brilliant people had no concept of global warming (the theory was "invented" in 1824). A thousand years ago, the world's most brilliant people believed you could cure insanity by cutting a hole in the patient's skull.

    Even the best and brightest of us are wrong now and then.
     
  17. amadeus

    amadeus めっちゃしんどい

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    It's from Seinfeld. It was a TV show.
     
  18. Formaldehyde

    Formaldehyde Both Fair And Balanced

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    Unlike facts, opinions can't be 'wrong', unless you are trying to argue the morality of having a particular opinion.

    It is ironic you chose this forum where calling someone an idiot is definitely not supposed to be allowed. However, in the real world there are no such moderators outside of a few select venues, such as courts of law. In the real world, the general rule is that you can do so just as long as you don't think he's going to beat the hell out of you for doing so, at least in the US where libel and slander laws are rarely enforced.

    From their perspective it was. But that's an example of a fact that turned out to be incorrect, not an opinion. At one time, everybody believed that was factual, including all the scientists.

    It could be argued that many of the "world's most brilliant people" still have no reasonable concept of global warming.

    AFAIK the world most brilliant people no longer believe that. However, surgeons still use essentially the same technique to save lives even today:

    http://news.sky.com/skynews/Home/Wo...lking_To_Family_Members_As_Condition_Improves

    And from their extremely limited notion of what 'insanity' actually meant, they were right. It did work on occasion when it didn't end up killing the person.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trepanation

    So that means we should restrict freedom of speech? Because even smart people are wrong now and then? Because even smart people occasionally call each other idiots over a difference of opinion?
     
  19. RedRalph

    RedRalph Deity

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    What you are saying is self-contradictory Basketcase.
     
  20. Brighteye

    Brighteye intuitively Bayesian

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    Individualism involves the use of liberty. The US has plenty of the latter but will not tolerate the former. The UK has dwindling amounts of both.
     

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