Indonesia

[mitsho]

Since there's talk going on, the one civ I dislike greatly at the moment and which just doesn't seem to work neither for AI nor for the human player is Indonesia. It's just so all over the place and it secondly has so much overlap with other civs that it may just benefit from a complete rework.

What to keep?

- Candi is a good name for a UB and there are no garden UB, so yes! But it probably needs a different effect.
- Kris blade is gimmicky, but quite unique and thus fun, no? I think we can keep it.
- The free luxuries are fun, but it must definitely get easier (since CEP f.e. had a free luxury as a whole UA and it wasn't that overpowered, we can go in that direction!) Just lose the trigger completely.

The thing is, one then loses quite the focus on archipelago, and isn't Indonesia quintessentially archipelagic? So it imho would need something 'coast'-based, an effect on the candi f.e.?

 

[Funak]

If the effect isn't used for another civ then having a civ where working coasttiles would be fun.

Could have a UA giving settled cities access to all coasttiles within the city radius, and some combinations of UA/UB making coasttiles better than farmed grassland/plains?

 

[Shalvan]

Hey, Funak, yesterday in Carthage thread you said that coast tiles shouldn't be better than farmed grassland, didn't you?

 

[Funak]

Hey, Funak, yesterday in Carthage thread you said that coast tiles shouldn't be better than farmed grassland, didn't you?

I said a building shouldn't make them better. If the entire civ is based around it then it would be fine.

 

[Gazebo]

Making Indonesia focus on raw expansion, specifically to gain the free resources they receive, would make up for their lack of an archipelagic focus. One of whoward's many mods makes the resources from Indonesia actually appear as physical resources on the map when the city is founded – this would be a great way to make Indonesia unique (they bring their spices with them to new cities) and also make their ability vulnerable if they're attacked.

G

 

[Shalvan]

This is actually a nice idea. I think it would play nice and I would gladly try out Indonesia with this UA (I always wanted to try them out, but never played longer than 20-40 turns).

Similar UA (placing a resource near cities) was given to Carthage by JFD in his mod which introduces Hannibal as an alternate leader.

 

[Funak]

No love for my fishingbased idea?

 

[mitsho]

So, what's the idea exactly?

Just the luxuries showing up next to Indonesia's cities? That seems fine, the big change is losing the 'on other islands' trigger, these spices being on the map seems more flavour (and not really enough punch for the UA).

What's 'raw expansion' exactly? (and how does it differ from the US). Cheaper Settlers? Some bonus of the Candi? I need more infos here

Personally, I like the idea of them getting easier access to sea-tiles. Seems flavourful and easily combinable with the luxuries UA thematically.

 

[Gazebo]

No love for my fishingbased idea?

Japan already has fishing boats covered. Onward to Plantations!
G

 

[Funak]

Japan already has fishing boats covered. Onward to Plantations!
G

Meant a fishingbased civ living off the coast, meaning givng more power to regular coasttiles making small 1-3 tile island cities viable assuming there are resources worth picking up there.

 

[void_genesis]

The best combination then seems to be that cities get a new unique spice luxury resource as a physical copy on the first X new islands settled. This would help Indonesia settle small islands rapidly with free happy resources. A one tile island would put the resource under the city for instant luxury access. It would need something to make sea tiles stronger (perhaps the effect of the candi so it comes a bit later for a growth boost?). Perhaps if you keep founding more cities on new landmasses the luxury type cycles back from the beginning, so the first copy is for happiness, the second and beyond for trading. Eventually the effect wears off if you found too many cities (no one left to trade with), unless you synergise with a policy etc that gives further rewards for excess luxuries.

One idea for the candi- could you make it give some bonus on sea tiles that increases with distance from the city? This would reflect Indonesias history of fishing far from home, and give a bonus that improves as the city expands (synergy with culture and certain policies and wonders). Or would an x% chance to spawn fish or an atoll every time a city adds a new ocean tile be interesting?

 

[Funak]

Ok from what I've understood so far.
You're going to make the Spice islander UA work even if the city is founded on the same continent, and you're going to remove the limit on how many cities it works for, but to balance it out your lowering the number of luxuries per city from 2 to 1, correct? Also the luxury will spawn on a random tile next to the city instead of under it?

 

[void_genesis]

The best combination then seems to be that cities get a new unique spice luxury resource as a physical copy on the first X new islands settled. This would help Indonesia settle small islands rapidly with free happy resources. A one tile island would put the resource under the city for instant luxury access. It would need something to make sea tiles stronger (perhaps the effect of the candi so it comes a bit later for a growth boost?). Perhaps if you keep founding more cities on new landmasses the luxury type cycles back from the beginning, so the first copy is for happiness, the second and beyond for trading. Eventually the effect wears off if you found too many cities (no one left to trade with), unless you synergise with a policy etc that gives further rewards for excess luxuries.

One idea for the candi- could you make it give some bonus on sea tiles that increases with distance from the city? This would reflect Indonesias history of fishing far from home, and give a bonus that improves as the city expands (synergy with culture and certain policies and wonders). Or would an x% chance to spawn fish or an atoll every time a city adds a new ocean tile be interesting?

 

[Funak]

The best combination then seems to be that cities get a new unique spice luxury resource as a physical copy on the first X new islands settled. This would help Indonesia settle small islands rapidly with free happy resources. A one tile island would put the resource under the city for instant luxury access. It would need something to make sea tiles stronger (perhaps the effect of the candi so it comes a bit later for a growth boost?). Perhaps if you keep founding more cities on new landmasses the luxury type cycles back from the beginning, so the first copy is for happiness, the second and beyond for trading. Eventually the effect wears off if you found too many cities (no one left to trade with), unless you synergise with a policy etc that gives further rewards for excess luxuries.

One idea for the candi- could you make it give some bonus on sea tiles that increases with distance from the city? This would reflect Indonesias history of fishing far from home, and give a bonus that improves as the city expands (synergy with culture and certain policies and wonders). Or would an x% chance to spawn fish or an atoll every time a city adds a new ocean tile be interesting?

Did you just copy your own post and post it again?

 

[void_genesis]

Sorry.....seem to be having a problem with the system indicating I havent been allowed to post then coming through later......just a glitch

 

[void_genesis]

Thats the main concept I am suggesting. Single extra luxury per coastal city for early expansion (still flavourful but less circumstantial than when it needs to be on a new landmass), then same effect supports later trade. I also see Indonesia as the only civ that has an incentive to settle on small islands, so some effect to boost ocean tiles would be useful. Is food on ocean tiles currently the most limiting factor that would hold them back? How to add some more food to these locations without being overpowered- would a simple % boost to ocean based food from the candi be easiest to code and balance?

 

[Gazebo]

Let's try this:

A unique luxury appears near your first three cities, with an additional luxury appearing if the city is your Capital, or if it is founded on a new landmass.

Simple, elegant, and easy. We can buff the Candi if we need be.

G

 

[Funak]

Let's try this:



Simple, elegant, and easy. We can buff the Candi if we need be.

G

I'd rather have it spawn one luxury with each settled city (no limit) and not really involve the capital or other landmasses, mostly because other landmasses are a hell to balance and because randomly appearing luxuries is going to be annoying even if it just happends when you settle. You're going to spend half the game pissed off about where your free luxury spawned (in the desert you don't really want to work, or on the floodplain that you'd rather farm or something like that)

 

[void_genesis]

One luxury per city (cycling through 3-4 different spices) would be useful for supporting a wide play style on any map size. Bigger map = more trading partners usually = more incentive to expand to every flyspeck island.
Putting it as a physical resource does have potential problems (makes plantation improving religion a must have). It does give advantages to other players stealing indonesian cities (a likely outcome for small remote island cities), but come to think of it that is kind of fun- if indonesia is around and spawning little island cities then you have a good reason to steal a few of them as you retain the spice luxury. This is also historically accurate with every european colonial power grabbing an indonesian island or two for spice industries.

 

[Funak]

One in every city is too much, plus we only have artwork for the three existing resources at present. I've considered bumping it to 2 in first three cities, and 3 in cities on different landmasses or in capital. That'll give you two resources to trade from your capital, and potentially four more to trade. Combining that with their higher gold yields, their bonuses from the Candi, and the potential for the Oral Tradition Pantheon makes them quite potent.

G

Wow man, I did not mean one unique luxury for every city. I meant one random of the existing 3, even cutting that number down to two or one would be fair. And if that is still unreasonable then as suggested a hardcap at the number of civs on the map would be fine. (2 cities on duel, 4 on tiny, 6 on small, 8 on standard, 10 on large, 12 on huge).

Since I can't really explain my feelings I'll try once again, the UA feels really boring once you've settled your first 3 cities. Settling 3 cities on a map larger than duel isn't really an accomplishment, you can pretty much expand away from all other AI and still settle 3 cities. My vision for Indonesia is that they take the risk to keep expanding to either worse/remote locations or into the AI because they know that their expansions are worth more than other peoples expansions (because of spices). This creates a more fun playstyle for the player, trying to get away with as much expansion as possible while being ready to defend your borders (whereever they may be). You also need to keep in mind that if your expanding pisses people off you have no tradepartners for your spice anyways, leaving you with no real win anyways.
It also creates a more interesting playstyle while you're playing against Indonesia. You can either play friendly with them and try to get them to trade their spice with you, or you can prey on their weak expansions and take their spices for your own.

My other point is that without your spices your UB is pretty damn situational and boring, I mean I still haven't haven't built it in half my cities in my current game and I'm in modern era now.


Also I'm well aware that this is not the place to discuss this and that I should have taken this in a leader discussion thread, but I just didn't expect it to turn into an argument. In fact I'll just doublepost this in the leader discussion thread if you feel like responding to it.


EDIT: I just copypasted this here and ironically this was exactly what the discussion was about