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Industrial Era Economics

Discussion in 'General Balance' started by Stalker0, Feb 4, 2020.

  1. Stalker0

    Stalker0 Baller Magnus

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    I have mentioned a few times that I noticed a significant drop in income around the Industrial Era. I tried to quantify that into actual numbers, and here's what I came up with. Lets try to calculate how profitable (or expensive) a normal city is. For convenience, I am going to use land focused cities that are not the capital. I'll use progress and statecraft for straightforward numbers. I am assuming almost all building up to industrial era are built, with the exception of the Guilds, Agribusiness and Stoneworks, as they are more situational.

    HELP REQUESTED: I could use some help on the following to finalize the analysis:

    1) Unit upkeep at Industrial Era?
    2) City Connection Income Average
    3) Standard Village Gold Income for Railroad + ITR running on it
    4) I assume 10 gold from terrain (other than villages). Is that reasonable? For land I think it is, sea areas would probably be double that.

    Expenses
    TOTAL: 111

    Buildings: 73
    Spoiler Breakdown :

    Ampitheater 1
    Aqueduct 1
    Arena 1
    Armory 2
    Arsenal 3
    Barracks 1
    Castles 2
    Chancery 3
    Circus 2
    Council 0
    Factory 7
    Forge 1
    Garden 3
    Granary 1
    Grocer 4
    Library 1
    Military Academy 6
    Monument 0
    Museum 6
    Opera House 4
    Public School 6
    Shrine 0
    Temple 1
    Train Station 7
    University 2
    Walls 1
    Well/Watermill 1
    Windmill 4
    Workshop 2

    Units: 28
    Spoiler Breakdown :

    I am assuming that a city will support 1 worker and 3 military units. This would put a 5 city empire at 15 units, and a 10 city empire at 30 units. That feels about right, could even be on the low end, but we can also assume are more wealthy capital is sharing some of the burden here.

    At Industrial Era: 4 units * 7 gold = 28

    Railroads: 10
    Spoiler Breakdown :
    We will assume that each city handles 5 units of railroad. This may be a bit too much, but humans also generally create extra road for military purposes.

    5 railroads * 2 per unit = 10.


    INCOME
    Total: 77
    Spoiler All Income Breakdown :

    Progress 2
    Statecraft 6
    Caravansary 4
    Custom House 3
    Arena 2
    Market 3
    Bank 2
    Chancery 10 (Assume 10 CS friends)
    Villages 12 (Assuming 2 villages per city)
    Starting Tile 1
    Other Tiles 10
    City Connection 8
    1 Merchant Specialist 7

    Total: 70
    +Train Station (10%): 77

    Deficit: 34 GPT per city

    So this deficit represents how much gold a city consumes. This suggests that in an empire with a lot of cities (aka the capital no longer can make up the majority of the gold income), that the deficit per city would start to dominate, and only TRs could compensate.

    This matches my experience. In Industrial Era, I find that my gold income drops noticeably, and if I'm sanctioned I often struggle to maintain a positive GPT. I think the Industrial bump in building upkeep is quite noticeable, you go from 1-2 on most buildings to 6-7 on Industrial era ones. I think that really eats into the gold available per city.
     
    Last edited: Feb 4, 2020
  2. CrazyG

    CrazyG Deity

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    Do you build arsenals in every city? You have them listed as 3 maintenance, but the tech tree displays 6.

    Does each unit cost 7 gold in maintenance? I just deleted a worker and a tercio to check, and my gold per turn only went up by 3 for each.

    The biggest thing to offset this is the agribusiness which dumps gold onto all of your farms. Golden ages are pretty common by this stage too. If you aren't able to do either of those, religion also exists as a source of gold. Cathedrals are very good, heck even just Notre Dame in your capital can rake in gold.
     
  3. Gazebo

    Gazebo Lord of the Community Patch Supporter

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  4. phantomaxl1207

    phantomaxl1207 King

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    The last Gold Building was the Bank, the next one is the Stock Exchange. TR's and Villages can't keep up with all the new Buildings.
     
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  5. Kim Dong Un

    Kim Dong Un The One & Unly Supporter

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    What really compounds the issue is the fact that luxuries are still being bartered with the AI using values which are trivial (regardless of diplomacy with the trading civ) from Industrial onward; why is my jade worth 5gpt in ancient as well as 5gpt in modern? This has bothered me for a while, and I think there should be more defined scaling when it comes to lux value. Maybe something like this as a base (before diplo would further influence the value positively/negatively):
    • Ancient / Classical - 5gpt
    • Medieval / Renaissance - 10gpt
    • Industrial - 15gpt
    • Modern - 20gpt
    • Atomic - 25gpt
    • Information - 30gpt
     
  6. Omen of Peace

    Omen of Peace Prince

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    I'd also like Luxuries AND Strategics to have variable cost throughout the eras (for the AI).
    Though ideally the value of some strategics (e.g. Horses) would fall off in later eras, and that might be judged a needlessly complex addition to the code by others.
     
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  7. phantomaxl1207

    phantomaxl1207 King

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    Should Horses even fall off in value? As Agribusiness are pretty good now. Iron is always useful as Ranged Naval will start needing it in Industrial. So, I don't see any Strategics losing their Value.
     
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  8. zeofig

    zeofig Chieftain

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    I think the AI's assessment of strategic resources has always been quite... unpredictable. The only time I usually sell them is very early game if I have a lot of horses or iron, and I can sell them for 0.5 or even 1 gold each. But I think it's difficult to balance selling strategics to the AI, since there's no limit to how many they can take. At least making them usually worthless prevents any broken craziness.
     
  9. azum4roll

    azum4roll King

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    I really don't know how AI values strategics. The Communitu_79a map is known to have severely low strategics amount and everyone lacks 1-2 types of them, but AIs still only pay 20 gold (not gpt!) for each of my coal.
     
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  10. Omen of Peace

    Omen of Peace Prince

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    Once you have built Agribusinesses where needed and have upgraded mounted units to Armored, remaining horses have 0 value.

    Same for coal after you've built coal-requiring buildings since there are no late-game buildings nor units that make use of it if I recall correctly.
     
  11. CrazyG

    CrazyG Deity

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    I've actually been deleting curaissers and lancers to build agribusinesses.
     
  12. Chandler

    Chandler Warlord

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    It's probably too late to make this suggestion, but still... If horses surplus in the late game is an issue for some people, have you considered introducing another building: Racecourse/Racetrack/Hippodrome? It could work similarly to Agribusiness with horses requirement, and give some other yields (most likely :c5gold: gold, but also maybe some :c5culture: culture, :tourism: tourism or even :c5science: science).

    I know hippodromes have been around for a looong while, but many of the ones used nowadays were built between 1850 to 1950 all around the world, so I think the building would fit quite nicely in the Modern Era, and Biology tech seems like a pretty good choice to me, because of the breeding thing and all that (which is what would kinda "justify" the :c5science: science I mentioned above).

    I also know @pineappledan has a Unique National Wonder called Hippodrome, for Byzantium, in his mod-mod 3rd and 4th Unique Components for VP, so using the same name would probably cause some friction ^^u. But, in that case, you could just name it as "Racecourse/Racetrack", which would work as well. And Byzantium's Hippodrome could even give some bonus to them, too.

    I don't know. As I said, probably too late. But it's an idea.
     
  13. Recursive

    Recursive Emperor

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    Without commenting on the economic factors, I can agree that the AI's valuation of strategic resources could use improvement. It's not particularly consistent or strategic.
     
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  14. Stalker0

    Stalker0 Baller Magnus

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    There's two sides of the coin. I agree that 4 GPT in Ancient means a lot more than in Modern. On the other hand, while the luxuries do scale, I find their effect notably decreases in the later game. +6 happiness late game might barely move my percentage, whereas in the early game that could be a 5% improvement to my Global Happy. I think I would like to see more scaling for the luxs as well in the late game.
     
  15. Stalker0

    Stalker0 Baller Magnus

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    G, just to confirm your statement. So it is your intention that large empires will run deficits in Industrial eras....so unless they have means of acquiring large instant gold levels they will be bankrupt?
     
  16. LifeOfBrian

    LifeOfBrian Warlord

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    I'd prefer if all strategic resources became more valuable trade-wise as the game progresses.
     
  17. Gazebo

    Gazebo Lord of the Community Patch Supporter

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    not instant, but trade should be important.

    G
     
  18. Gidoza

    Gidoza Emperor

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    I think I'll back up G on this one - I was sanctioned in a recent game for most of the game and kept myself together despite it, but it turned a huge surplus into breaking even. The trade was where it was at.
     
  19. Heinz_Guderian

    Heinz_Guderian Chieftain

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    In the late game, really? If you are doing well everyone will hate you, and currently you will be at war with most countries most of the time. But I guess you mean cargo ships?
     
  20. Gidoza

    Gidoza Emperor

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    That's a fair point. But I'm also curious why the AI will only give me 1 gold for an Iron, but it costs me 50 gold for the same, fairly early on?
     
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