Industry, 7 flaws

[Moi Magnus]

IDK how the rounding works, but I know you won't earn decimal values for culture.

Are you sure of that ? I've always though that the first decimal was taken in acount, at least partially.

But I agree that the +2% will not be enough to make caravanserail interesting

 

[CrazyG]

Are you sure of that ? I've always though that the first decimal was taken in acount, at least partially.

But I agree that the +2% will not be enough to make caravanserail interesting

I know that if you earn 19 culture per turn and have 10 happiness, the raw value would be another 1.9 culture, but you get just 1. So I would guess that it rounds down all the time, buts its very possible the mechanics vary. At least science gets decimals

 

[tu_79]

Tu_79, I agree with several points you've made, but overall I still think that for a non-warmonger, industry's happiness bonuses aren't that crucial compared to rationalism's. Rationalism decreases unhappiness from religious divisions, boredom and illiteracy (and also slightly poverty, I think, due to specialists gaining +1 gold). Furthermore, if you've managed to found a religion (which ought to be a very important goal for any non-warmonger), you can often get churches (which are paramount in spreading your faith) and pacifism (not only gives you happiness, but decreases costs of missionaries, further helping spreading and increasing happiness), and I've almost never seen the AI pick the "One world, one religion" reformation belief (where missionaries act like mini-prophets). With a combo of pacifism&one world, one religion, it's very easy to spread religion to the 4 AIs that haven't founded (and which will never be angry at you for spreading your religion to them) and thus gain a lot of happiness. Lots of happiness means that you can afford to sell more luxuries (giving you more money), that you can ignore building some buildings that you would otherwise build to reduce unhappiness (thus saving you money/production), work more specialists etc. Extra growth can be a big boon if you're friends with 2 or 3 maritime city states or if you pick Mandirs or the food follower belief (or if you haven't founded a religion, if a religion has spread to you with Mandirs/food follower belief).

Churches are imho OP. Pacifism seems one of the best enhancers for a non-warmonger (1 happiness imho is worth much more than 1c/1s or 1g/1f per followers, especially in the later game, and it helps you spread more than the enhancers helping with the passive spread). One world, one religion is uber-strong for spreading your religion (and another bonus is that it doesn't really benefit the AI you've spread your religion to, whereas other reformations can turn out to benefit the AI more than you as the founder). If you manage to get pacifism + one world, one religion (and the AI very rarely takes either of them), you'll be having lots of happiness, and if you get churches, it will be even better. And that removes a huge reason for taking industry as opposed to rationalism.

Again, that's just my opinion, but when I'm playing a non-warmonger game where I'm a founder, I see little reason to go with industry instead of rationalism.

I see why you replace pacifism as a happiness generator instead of industry, I just don't think that's the best combo. You went all the trouble to make your religion easily spread, but you had to give up on other bonuses. By going churches, you are not picking pagodas or cathedrals, for example. By picking Pacifism you are not taking Clericalism, which works well if you don't plan on spreading a lot and you want to save faith for GP purchases.
I like Pacifism too, but I think it may be overdoing for some play styles that fit Rationalism. What do you do when your happiness is above 40? CrazyG says that you don't use it for growing, since the time for growing has passed, so I wonder why would you want that much happiness.

Gazebo, I like the change to the division of labour, but with mercantilism, I'd rather see a bonus only to markets, banks and stock exchanges, as they're the more commonly built buildings of the bunch. The +2% bonus imho won't be an extra reason enough to build caravansaries and customs houses. So I'd rather see a +2% science&culture to markets and +4% to banks and stock exchanges.

I believe the idea here is to encourage the player to prioritize trading/gold buildings. Trading buildings (give bonus to trade routes) are going to be built anyway in cities with active trading. Gold buildings (give gold and a merchant slot) can be built anywhere when there's nothing better to build or when gold is needed.
Trade buildings are: Market, Custom House, Caravansary(land) and Harbor(sea).
Gold buildings are: Market, Custom House, Bank and Stock Exchange.

Gold buildings are already buffed by the extra great merchants, though banks are really weak, imo. Stock Exchange comes a bit late for the policy, but being just one building we could let it be. I think I build more trade buildings when I set to internal trade routes, which fits in Industrialism (finisher). So I'd say to stick with trade buildings, but let the bonus be bigger (agree that 2% is very little).
Or let merchant specialists give +1 culture +1 science (instead of more great merchants), and trade buildings increase science and culture in the city by 5% each one (up to 20% in coastal cities), so they add up.

 

[Blue Ghost]

What do you do when your happiness is above 40? CrazyG says that you don't use it for growing, since the time for growing has passed, so I wonder why would you want that much happiness.

In the late game, happiness acts mostly as a buffer for war. Happiness can drop quite quickly in aggressive wars, with war weariness and penalties from conquest, so the more happiness you have to start, the longer you can keep fighting without needing to rest. So the happiness boost from Industry can be quite valuable for warmongers.

 

[Enginseer]

So doesn't that mean that 2% of something only is worth 1.2 of that yield? I think its going to round down for culture, so just 1. By modern era it might be stronger, but immediately its going to be weaker or just as weak as it is now.

Feel free to explain what I'm missing, I don't think this is really a very large buff, if its a buff at all

By the time you unlock Mercantilism, you will have access to only +4 Culture and +4 Science compared to +8% of that Culture and Science. You only need 50 to already pay itself off.

Banks are already fine. Banks have even won me a free tech because you just kept investing and investing.

 

[tu_79]

In the late game, happiness acts mostly as a buffer for war. Happiness can drop quite quickly in aggressive wars, with war weariness and penalties from conquest, so the more happiness you have to start, the longer you can keep fighting without needing to rest. So the happiness boost from Industry can be quite valuable for warmongers.

I know. We were talking about Pacifism+Churches+Rationalism. The extra happiness in this case cannot be used efficiently for wars, as you lose the happiness bonus when you declare war on one of those converted civs.

 

[Txurce]

I know. We were talking about Pacifism+Churches+Rationalism. The extra happiness in this case cannot be used efficiently for wars, as you lose the happiness bonus when you declare war on one of those converted civs.

God of the Expanse + Churches + Pacifism + Rationalism is an almost guaranteed provider of happiness and science for any civ. Going tall doesn't hinder it in the least -- it's just not as awesome as going wide. If I don't take this religious route, I almost always have happiness problems. So for me it's a no-brainer, unless special circumstances are particularly tempting.

 

[CrazyG]

By the time you unlock Mercantilism, you will have access to only +4 Culture and +4 Science compared to +8% of that Culture and Science. You only need 50 to already pay itself off.

Banks are already fine. Banks have even won me a free tech because you just kept investing and investing.

So each building gives 4% or 2%?

I like the way the bank is designed. Its a building that is very worthwhile in certain cities. However, its rather expensive to place everywhere. It seems good to me, you place banks in certain key cities but not others. The issue with this policy is it gets compared to Rationalism's village booster, and you already wanted villages in every city. If you want to change a few farms or lumbermills to villages, the opportunity cost is fairly low (at this stage you likely have more workers built than you need).

I generally want a market and a stock exchange everywhere, but not customs houses, banks, or caravansaries. The opportunity cost for putting up a bank instead of another building remains fairly high. I find that they are generally worth building only if I took progress, because I get something like 404060 as a subsidy for finishing the buildings. This is really what I don't like about industry, its very strong when paired with an ancient era policy, but underwhelming without

 

[Gokudo01]

This is really what I don't like about industry, its very strong when paired with an ancient era policy, but underwhelming without

Yes it was one of the point that I didnt feel right

 

[lunker]

I agree and disagree with some points:

Number 1 :

Internal trade route bonus is fairly unique, only being shared by Iron Curtain, a level 3 policy in Order. I do feel that 33% isn't nearly enough though. I also feel some of the uniqueness is in the trivialization of money through the per-policy bonus. The poverty reduction policy is massive and quite cool, though the trade route side of it I agree is underwhelming. Buying nearly twice as many units than if you didn't take Industry is definitely unique and noticeable. I do agree that the rest of the tree is somewhat boring.

Number 2 :

Agreed, though boosting merchants may make Venice's unique even more absurd.

Number 3 :

Agreed.

Number 4 :

I don't at all mind that Industry is weaker in science in culture. The money you get from the tree can be used accelerate nearly any aspect of your empire. That kind of versatility is what sets it apart from the other trees and I think that should be preserved.

I 100% agree about the bonuses on Customs Houses being really disappointing though.

Number 5 :

Agreed, though I will really miss the per-policy bonus if it gets nerfed. I think it's the single coolest thing about Industry.

Number 6 :

Industry works well with Progress and Authority, and with a few tweaks to trade route policies I think it would be a great with Tradition as well. I don't really see any flaws here.

Number 7 :

I pick Industry most of the time and I totally thought others did too o_o. I pick industry because the $$ can be used for anything. Also love to pick it when I want to build a Protectionist empire with Order's Nationalization and Iron Curtain.

 

[Galbias]

Why would you want a Stock Exchange everywhere but not a Bank? Banks give you Science for investing, Stock Exchanges (effectively) give you Gold for investing. They're both something you build in cities where you want to invest in things.

Churches are imho OP. Pacifism seems one of the best enhancers for a non-warmonger (1 happiness imho is worth much more than 1c/1s or 1g/1f per followers, especially in the later game, and it helps you spread more than the enhancers helping with the passive spread). One world, one religion is uber-strong for spreading your religion (and another bonus is that it doesn't really benefit the AI you've spread your religion to, whereas other reformations can turn out to benefit the AI more than you as the founder). If you manage to get pacifism + one world, one religion (and the AI very rarely takes either of them), you'll be having lots of happiness, and if you get churches, it will be even better. And that removes a huge reason for taking industry as opposed to rationalism.

Again, that's just my opinion, but when I'm playing a non-warmonger game where I'm a founder, I see little reason to go with industry instead of rationalism.

Worth noting that Churches did get an indirect nerf recently with the changes to Open Borders. That said, as someone who tends towards peaceful Tall play (though I usually don't go Pacifism), I do think that Happiness tends to not be that big of an issue in Industrial era and beyond, and Rationalism tends to be more attractive.

 

[CrazyG]

Why would you want a Stock Exchange everywhere but not a Bank? Banks give you Science for investing, Stock Exchanges (effectively) give you Gold for investing. They're both something you build in cities where you want to invest in things.

Banks have a good effect but crap yields. You only need a few banks, then spend most of your money in cities with the banks (like if you have a military city)

The stock exchange has strong yields which I want everywhere. 3 base gold and 2 more for every citizen. The purchasing reduction is also nice, but I only need the purchasing reduction in a few key spots. I very often don't build many banks until I'm close to the stock exchange

 

[Owlbebach]

While i was defending industry before, i think that the best way to describe the problem with it is that Rationalism is better in most of the situations. Ideal situation is when Rationalism is an optimal choice 50% of time and Industry optimal choice in another 50% of time (Imperialism is an option too, but it has its own very specific role of dominating the world). The problem with Industry now is that while it can be good in very specific cases, Rationalism is better in 80% of cases, while Industry is better in 20% of cases.

And i repeat, if to rework Industry i would love Industry to be a tree that makes gold the most important yield and forces player to invest into everything. This will create interesting and unique gameplay. I think it would be great to give to Bank or some other buildings that "% of invested money converted to yield" feature. Something like "Museum converts 10% of invested money into culture" and "Grocer converts 10% of invested money into food"

 

[LukaSlovenia29]

If I could, I'd simply add another element to the Industry scaler, sth like each industry policy gives 2 or 3 (or some other number) production to each city. That would make the industry's focus on gold&production stronger.

 

[tu_79]

That would make the industry's focus on gold&production stronger

That's key. More focus -> greater risk -> allows for greater rewards.
On the other hand, if it gets too focused, human player gets advantage over AI.

 

[Owlbebach]

If I could, I'd simply add another element to the Industry scaler, sth like each industry policy gives 2 or 3 (or some other number) production to each city. That would make the industry's focus on gold&production stronger.

It would be useless, Industry already gives quite a lot of production and gold. Whenever i play Industry - i usually end up with nothing useful to build in my cities. That is exactly the problem of industry, you can build stuff, but this stuff is useless

 

[doublex55]

This is why Gazebo is increasing late game unit costs

 

[Galbias]

Banks have a good effect but crap yields. You only need a few banks, then spend most of your money in cities with the banks (like if you have a military city)

The stock exchange has strong yields which I want everywhere. 3 base gold and 2 more for every citizen. The purchasing reduction is also nice, but I only need the purchasing reduction in a few key spots. I very often don't build many banks until I'm close to the stock exchange

Thanks, that makes sense.

 

[ElliotS]

Banks have a good effect but crap yields. You only need a few banks, then spend most of your money in cities with the banks (like if you have a military city)

The stock exchange has strong yields which I want everywhere. 3 base gold and 2 more for every citizen. The purchasing reduction is also nice, but I only need the purchasing reduction in a few key spots. I very often don't build many banks until I'm close to the stock exchange

I don't know. Banks have always felt really good to me. I look at it as a science building rather than a gold building. Every gold I spend in a city w/o a bank feels wasted once I get them. If I'm earning 1000 GPT, then banks are ~120 science per turn effectively.

 

[CrazyG]

I don't know. Banks have always felt really good to me. I look at it as a science building rather than a gold building. Every gold I spend in a city w/o a bank feels wasted once I get them. If I'm earning 1000 GPT, then banks are ~120 science per turn effectively.

But how many cities is that?

If you manage to focus spend the gold, you can get away with building just 2-3 banks but still getting the science bonus on most purchases