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Industry

Discussion in 'General Balance' started by Stalker0, Oct 4, 2019.

  1. Stalker0

    Stalker0 Baller Magnus

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    Similar to my recent Fealty thread, I think industry could use a touch up...but just a small adjustment. Honestly, I think a swap of a few abilities may be all it needs. My suggestion:

    Free Trade: Gains +1 TR. Loses +5 gold for ITR.
    Protectionism: Only +1 TR (down from 2). Gain +5 gold for ITR.

    So what this does is give Industry a stronger bonus early (I think an extra TR is overall better than the +5 gold for ITR), but overall its bonuses are the same. Further, it gives better balance to ETR and ITR (both are boosted at the same time in the tree, which I think makes a natural sense).
     
    phantomaxl1207 likes this.
  2. phantomaxl1207

    phantomaxl1207 King

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    Protectionism is too stacked, IMO. Due to the way the tree is designed, it is more or less part of the Finisher.
     
  3. andersw

    andersw King

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    This tree is part of gameplay that I don't understand, or maybe it is something that my gameplay style rarely needs?
    Looks like it is supposed to be strong with statecraft and traderoutes, correct?
    I have tested it but at the time industry comes online I don't really need to build that many buildings, maybe if there is a second continent reached by pioneers/colonists?
    Are there ways to tech up super fast so you reach this with not much infrastructure? research agreements?
    Any speeds that makes it more viable?
    For catch-up rationalism seems to be the goto, imperialism if I have a safe warmonger position.
     
    CrazyG likes this.
  4. CrazyG

    CrazyG Deity

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    I don't find industry very useful, generally speaking. I just find rationalism is better for peace and imperialism is better for war. If you aren't using gold and production on military units I can't see why you need big amounts of those resources.

    The window of opportunity that I see is for diplomatic strategies, who need to spend a lot on diplomatic units, but I usually end up having a lot of wars in those situations and would much prefer imperialism's bonuses, like the extra movement for ships. At least broadway is good for tourism.
     
  5. andersw

    andersw King

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    I did use it with authority-statecraft-industry as Austria.
    But the insane city state rewards and total domination of citystates through marriages combined with somewhat weak AI's made the game silly and industry was not a make or brake option.
    But with my wide play I was lacking in buildings and needed the infra still when I grabbed industry as social policy.

    Maybe progress-statecraft would have more use of industry? it also depends if you have hammers in your religion or not.
    Maybe some far fetched strat with Babylon for extremely cheap purchases is possible where you go for a smaller empire with fast policys/science -> wide+infrastructure at around industrial?

    Mostly at this stage I miss happiness and if I didn't go wide I'd probably already have the infra structure already,
    and industry provides +1happy (per workshop) with Entrepreneurship which is one policy later compared to the alternatives.
     
  6. Legen

    Legen King

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    I'm mostly irked that Industry has Free trade and Protectionism together, they are mutually exclusive to each other. Given the tree also has Entrepreneurship, it should be Free Trade only, with Protectionism replaced by some other concept.

    In terms of role, Industry's strengths were suposed to be gold and culture, with a weakness in science. I find that the culture output from Industry's policies isn't clearly better than picking Rationalism or Imperialism. It's mostly tied to the 15% :c5culture: culture from the five commerce buildings, plus from sending the extra trade routes to a city-state. The tree only gets some edge with Broadway, which comes way later, and if the player is set on cultural processes.
     
    vyyt likes this.
  7. Noob Fanboy

    Noob Fanboy Warlord

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    The tree is nice for expanding mid-game then catching up in infrastructure for late-game. Or for tradition players with a lack of hammers.
     
  8. chicorbeef

    chicorbeef Emperor

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    I like Industry for Tradition CV, you build all the wonders and culture buildings and archaeologists fast and then work processes with spare hammers to speed up victory.
     
  9. Stalker0

    Stalker0 Baller Magnus

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    Entrepreneurship's ability could be pushed here. We could allow GDs to get into the 25% extra. Or, if we really want to turn it up, 25% better yields for all GP instants. That would actually have a very interesting synergy with Rationalism's Free Thought (you get +50% yields on GS).
     
  10. CrazyG

    CrazyG Deity

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    Given that many of the modern era buildings are apparently F-tier and factories themselves are questionable too, I just don't see why I should take such a huge loss in science or military strength (by not taking rationalism or imperialism) to get more production and gold.

    I run out of valuable things to build as Babylon, even without industry. I think that a religion with gold + rationalism would be strong enough to build all key buildings and some wonders, while having more science than industry + science religion. Also industry comes quite late, and having weak hammers in the mid-game is really unappealing. Being late on science isn't so bad though, you get to steal a few techs before taking rationalism to make your comeback.

    This would make it better, but I don't really see the theme. Industry can be appealing sometimes if I have tradition and I want tourism, because Broadway is good and extra gold helps pay for things like hotels. I just think it is, at best, only slightly better than rationalism for this situation.

    I'd increase its cultural output instead. That gives it a more solid niche IMO, and helps cement industry as a solid option whenever pursuing a tourism victory.
     
    vyyt, Kim Dong Un and Bromar1 like this.
  11. BiteInTheMark

    BiteInTheMark Emperor

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    Maybe remove the +5 gold for ETR from "Free Trade" and the +33% yields for ITR from "Protectionism" and add instead +5% yields for all trade routes to the "Scaler".
    This shouldnt make that much difference in the end, but cleans a bit up the tree and distribute the benefits better.
    Then you could also remove the +25% yields from Merchants and Engineers from "Entrepreneurship" and make engineers and merchants are trained 66% faster in "Free Trade".
    More yields from expanding them isnt really necessary, you already swim in gold and hammer, but gaining them more often may be worth more.

    Optional:
    Maybe add double the yields for mines/lumbermills/... also for GP Improvements and Landmarks in "Entrepreneurship".
    Change +2:c5production:+1:c5gold: for mines/lumbermills/... to +:c5production::c5science::c5gold: for mines/lumbermills/... in "Entrepreneurship".
    By finishing a trade route, get 1 turn of city yield production as instant yields.
     
    Kim Dong Un likes this.

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