Infantry: "March" or "Blitz"

Discussion in 'Civ5 - Strategy & Tips' started by Randall Turner, Sep 8, 2011.

  1. Randall Turner

    Randall Turner King

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    I'm just curious, what's the general thinking on the first "major" promotion for infantry units, "March" or "Blitz"?

    I've finally reached the point playing as Americans where I've got a few ex-Minuteman units that have reached their first promotion. (Minutemen start with Drill I, built in a city with the Armory they get Drill II and Drill III right out of the box - so their first promotion after reaching 60 XP can be one of the "major" promotions.)

    It seems like the general consensus is that "Blitz" gives more value, but an infantry unit only has a "2" movement. I'm leaning towards giving my veterans "March" as their first promotion, as they're usually always getting little dings on them and they often don't have enough movement to take advantage of the "Blitz" until much later. (When I can promote them to Mech Infantry.) Does that seem reasonable?
     
  2. MadDjinn

    MadDjinn Deity

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    Blitz. vs. Minutemen is always a 50-50 thing.

    Yes, 2 move units use blitz just fine by attacking twice.

    and Yes, march tends to cover up those little hits better than blitz does.

    Also, in general, Rough terrain specialists should be taking March over blitz, due to only getting 1 attack/turn in rough terrain anyways. Woodsman allows the movement, but that has to come as a 5th or 6th promotion, which makes it kinda rough.

    Of course, with Minutemen, take blitz for rough terrain duty since you don't need the woodsman promotion to use it.
     
  3. WeaselSlapper

    WeaselSlapper Prince

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    On offense I almost always choose march first, on defensive it's a toss up.

    On offense March allows my army to kill a city and keep going rather than having to stop to heal. Combine this with a medic nearby and an army on the move healing 2 HP per turn is can wipe out a civ before they can throw too many reinforcements at me. I've found that with Blitz there just simply aren't enough opportunities to take advantage of more than one attack per turn before mech infantry and when I do get that chance I usually have to stop and heal for quite a few turns after that anyway.

    On defense with Blitz I can attack once and retreat back to a city or behind another unit for safety or attack twice from the safety of a city then heal quickly so he can attack again. But March is useful when retreating isn't as practical because my troops can deal damage and are more able to take abuse when they get counter attacked.
     
  4. Man vs Civ AI

    Man vs Civ AI Chieftain

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    Most often it is "march" for me! I prefer to attack using the best health possible.
     
  5. KrikkitTwo

    KrikkitTwo Immortal

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    The advantage to Blitz is Not the 2 attacks, its the Attack+Retreat capability.. so your Veteran can be in a safe position to not get killed. (as opposed to March that heal 1 or 2 points and then get trahed)

    (As mentioned, non-Minutemen rough terrain specialists are better off getting March, since they often can't retreat)
     
  6. snarzberry

    snarzberry Emperor

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    A cool thing about blitz is that when in a siege the unit can attack then rotate with a fresh unit in the second rank for another attack. This means you don't always have to surround the city if you have a few blitz units. Units 2 deep on one flank can bring 6 attacks, similar to what you can do with mandekalu cavalry.
     
  7. vexing

    vexing knows

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    march
     
  8. Randall Turner

    Randall Turner King

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    I'd agree that in general the move-after-attack is more valuable, but no sooner did I promote my first veteran than I ran into the exception to the rule. I was in the middle of a city assault when I went over the promotion threshold. Next turn, after bombarding the city and attacking with everyone in range, I ended up two hit points shy of taking the silly thing.

    Generally you have to stop attacking because you'll often take enough losses that attacking a second time will leave you weak enough that you're risking destruction next turn. However, attacking a city with a strength 5 or so unit is okay - as long as you take the city, you'll end up in it and protected.

    That was the case here. grrr.

    Incidentally, this almost never comes up for me. (Minuteman promotion.) I'm still beating my head against the "American, Deity, Continents" setup, it's rare I make it to Gunpowder before someone eats my lunch. This game, I was just testing the "build a fort on a resource" exploit, and I ended up with this start...

    (see save 6 jpg)

    Not so hot, really, but I'm just testing something out, no big deal. But then, I take one step to the east w/my settler to get on a hill, and move to the northwest w/my warrior to go get that ruin, and I find...

    (see save 7 jpg)

    El Dorado, 500 gold, WOO-HOO! Now, I'm not sure what anybody else is supposed to do with that 500 gold, but with the American scouting advantage it's a no-brainer. I buy scouts (and build one in 5 turns) and flood the area with them, end up with a couple techs, a culture bump, and eventually three (3, !!) scout-bowmen. (The third I actually got from a late ruin, but still.)

    I'm sure El Dorado is nice for any civ, but with the Americans it's a huge synergistic boost combined with their sight bonus and a bunch of scouts. Upshot is that this is the closest I've ever come to winning a Deity, Standard Continents game with the Americans. (Will probably still lose, and I've reloaded too much for it to be a HOF game, but it's still nice.)

    Just thought I'd share. <shrug>
     

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  9. vexing

    vexing knows

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    wait... you're going to lose while exploiting this? =0
     
  10. Randall Turner

    Randall Turner King

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    Well, I'm not sure I'm going to lose, but the exploit isn't as powerful as you guys led me to believe. Also, it came pretty late - I was on the verge of dying before I got Engineering tech and enough workers & resource tiles to really take advantage of it. (I'm in late Renaissance now.)

    Even now, though - given that I'm poking at it and not really turning it into an assembly line - the civ I'm at war with is making (checking...) 235 gold a turn. I can't make that up with my current setup using the exploit.

    Look, here's the deal. You guys seemed to think that you could improve a resource tile, make a deal, then turn around and destroy the resource with a fort - then immediately rebuild the resource improvement. That's not quite how it works.

    If you have an improved resource, the first time you build a fort on it the resource improvement is, indeed, destroyed. But the next time, you have to complete the fort before the resource improvement goes away. That means there's a 10-12 turn "lag" in getting the resource back online.

    Then, you have to destroy all the resource improvements for a certain resource type, and you typically get "out of step" vis a vis fort building with a set of resources tiles - that means you usually have to eat the 10-12 turns each time you invalidate a set of agreements.

    Also, you're usually hurting the other civs that you're friendly with, not the ones you'd really like to take the money from.

    This, plus the fact that you're usually suffering from low happiness (as you lose the benefit of the resource happiness yourself before any agreements are cancelled) plus there often aren't enough trading partners to take full advantage of the mechanic, plus the opportunity cost of not making the improvements your workers would normally be making, means that if you're in an expansion phase the return isn't that enormous. Significant, yes - probably net gain of something like 2x what you'd normally make with resource deals. But it's not overwhelming.

    My experience has been that if you can't find an overwhelming advantage playing America on Deity, winning isn't going to be a gimme. Especially so if you're sort of poking at things and not keeping your eye on the ball.

    I should probably update that "resource exploit" thread with some hard numbers. I'd rather play one more serious game using it first though, and I don't have as much time nowadays to play. <shrug>
     
  11. vexing

    vexing knows

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    interesting bit about the needing to complete the fort, in that case barbarian pillage farming would be more effective overall. anyway, are you not combining your gpt with the resource prior to pillage/fort? you should pretty easily be able to go over 2x normal.
     
  12. turtlefang

    turtlefang Warlord

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    I used to prefer the Blitz first but have really gotten away from it lately with everyone I play. Now, I prefer March over Blitz. Even when playing with Monty's Jags that get woodsmen right out of the gate, march keeps the offense moving and you use it far more often than you use blitz. Add in a medic promotion with a group of units and you can keep on rolling. It just seems to work better for me much more often than not.

    And by the time I get MI, I have ART to help pound a city down. So I don't really need the double attack. Though I do agree its more useful in attack - retreat - repair than attack - attack.
     
  13. vexing

    vexing knows

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    jaguars and janissaries are the two units where you probably should be taking blitz first - the heal on a kill is mighty, jagswords can eat through two warriors or archers or even horsemen/pikemen in the right terrain and still end at full health
     
  14. fmlizard2

    fmlizard2 Prince

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    I'm a March man myself in most cases. Blitz tends to wind up with very experienced corpses. March keeps that surviving unit alive.
     
  15. Infiltrator

    Infiltrator Warlord

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    For infantry, definitely march.. being infantry they will most likely get hit a lot, and march allows you to recuperate more easily, allowing you to take cities faster.

    The only infantry I would consider getting blitz first would be Jaguar warriors or janissarys
     
  16. turtlefang

    turtlefang Warlord

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    I play Monty on a regular basis and the heal on the kill is great, but its the just didn't finish off the guy that really gets to you. And that's where you end up with your losses even with jagswords. I like to preserve my troops and take as few losses as possible - which seems to work better for me.

    So I prefer taking march first - and then, in many cases, cover - before blitz - it keeps the promoted jags living from the start of the game to the end. Add in a couple of medics and you get some very fast healing armies.
     
  17. Mark the Bold

    Mark the Bold Warlord

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    March. Always. The only exception is Modern Armor which is a pretty late game exception to the rule.

    March is also the first upgrade after the +1 attack upgrade for artillery. Self healing artillery is the best unit in the game. EVEN at the expense of the +1 range upgrade. Really.
     
  18. GenjiKhan

    GenjiKhan Emperor

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    Japan Infantry benefits more from Blitz than March,since they can do the same amount of damage everytime . Usually,it's better to give Blitz to the Infantry Unit which will attack a city . To all the others,I'd give March first,then Medic promotion and finally Blitz .
     
  19. Roxlimn

    Roxlimn Deity

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    I'm in agreement with most here.

    In general, units will benefit from March both on offense and on the move. March allows your Rifleman (melee) to attack AND heal 2 HP at the same time - the same as a Jag killing something, without having to kill anything, preserving its attack strength for a second go the next turn.

    Thus, March increases offensive power both tactically and strategically - and it's easier to acquire March for Artillery to boot.

    In certain cases, Blitz is better. You will want a few Sortie units. These are units that function to attack-and-retreat. Generally, you will want to use dedicated Horsemen or Lancers for this, but you can't always do that, particularly against Spearmen or Pikemen or Tercio. On the defensive, these units will take center stage.

    Jags don't need March as much as Blitz because they already heal lots. Same goes for Immortals, and especially for Janissaries. Janissaries benefit the most from Blitz because they heal full with every kill, so a sufficiently outteched army of Janissaries will rip an enemy army to shreds.

    Japan similarly benefits from Blitz, because Bushido means never having to wait for the heals. HP only matters when your unit is about to be killed (or can possibly be killed by focus fire). This means you can safely ignore it a lot of times and just attack-attack-attack. This is not true for most other Civs since the normal rule is that decreased HP means decreased Combat Strength - units not at full strength are more liable to get attacked and die.
     
  20. WeaselSlapper

    WeaselSlapper Prince

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    The discussion between March and Logistics is an entirely different one. For me I almost never take March for my ranged units (at least not before Logistics and Range when you really don't need it anyway). For ranged units getting Logistics is priority number one. My ranged units normally don't take much damage unless the city I'm seiging decides it wants to attack my ranged instead of melee units. Even then they don't take much damage and I heal them pretty quickly after I take the city. Also taking march will significantly slow down getting Logistics, pushing it from the 4th promo to the 5th which will be very hard to get only attacking once per turn. Two ranged attacks per turn are just too powerful to delay for that long.

    I usually take Range after Logistics (there are some exceptions here where I would take March first, like there's a lot of forests around, but not that many hills) because being able to fire farther than the things that can fire back means my units don't take damage and don't need to heal so I can kill cities faster because my units are always firing at full strength and can't get killed by concentrated fire. However using a range three attack without and hill or indirect fire can be tricky so sometimes March is a better choice, but not very often (I don't like to take indirect fire on siege units because it gets wasted when the unit is upgraded to arty since arty get it free).
     

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