Infernal stuff

[WarKirby]

Playing a game as the infernals. I'd like to mention a few things.

Firstly, my economy, seems ridiculous. I've been running an ever-increasing defecit, which now stands at -90 per turn. At yet... I'm still making profit? My gold balance is over 3000 and still RISING every turn, despite the UI saying I should be losing money. I seem to just be recieving a few hundred gold every turn, with no apparent source.
Is this intended?

Also, not sure if this is a bug or not, but the unitdeath outcome from reading the infernal grimoire, can happen even if the one reading it is Hyborem, which seems a little odd. I'm thinking he (or perhaps demons in general) should be immune to that effect.

Also, playing on deity difficulty, I'm seeing incredible manes spawn rates. The size of my capital city is larger than the turn counter! Approx turn 120 now, and Dis is size 200. I plaed them right from the start though, which kind of explains that. But doing some testing with the worldbuilder, it seemed I was getting manes every time a city changed hands, even when it wasn't razed...

 

[xalien]

I have another one - Lanun asked to become my vassal. I agreed and automatically declared war on their enemies including ... Agares. That means that infernals can't aford to accept free will vassals or they can get in heaps of trouble, sitting in all this hell terrain and all.

Hell terrain seems to be ridiculously productive for infernals, 3 on fields of perdition and 2 on broken lands.

Edit: mistformsthat spawn are hostile to infernals, that's just wrong. Probably because they're HN.

 

[TheGreatSteve]

The vassal thing is annoying, but almost seems fitting. The demons have only dupes and victims, if they're treating mortals as anything else, maybe they've forgotten their plan. Maybe they've gone native and need to be dealt with like everyone else.

Firstly, my economy, seems ridiculous. I've been running an ever-increasing defecit, which now stands at -90 per turn. At yet... I'm still making profit? My gold balance is over 3000 and still RISING every turn, despite the UI saying I should be losing money. I seem to just be recieving a few hundred gold every turn, with no apparent source.
Is this intended?

I think hammer overflow beyond a certain point gets turned into gold. So when you have your 200 pop Dis churning out 60 axemen you'll end up getting quite a bit of free gold every turn.

Also, playing on deity difficulty, I'm seeing incredible manes spawn rates. The size of my capital city is larger than the turn counter! Approx turn 120 now, and Dis is size 200. I plaed them right from the start though, which kind of explains that. But doing some testing with the worldbuilder, it seemed I was getting manes every time a city changed hands, even when it wasn't razed...

Were there units in those cities? Can get manes when evil living units die. I'm not sure but you might get manes from the population lost when an evil city changes hands.

 

[Deon]

I'm not sure but you might get manes from the population lost when an evil city changes hands.

Yeah, that. And not even evil, if there's an evil religion in a good city it still counts. That's why you need inquisitors.

 

[xienwolf]

Can you post a savegame of gaining gold each turn when the UI says you should be losing instead? Need to see it to fix it.

EDIT: Nevermind, overflow production sounds exactly right for the cause. I'll see about making sure that overflow production being converted to gold gives a text notification.

 

[WarKirby]

Overflow production would explain it. Dis has so many that I can build almost any wonder in a single turn, even. nd still have a vast number of left over.

Also, I've wondered why I hd such a huge defecit, being that my army is only of moderate size, I have only 4 cities, and I'm running military state. So I checked the financial advisor, and I'm paying 165 per turn in civic upkeep. Is that cost based on population or somesuch?

I have another one - Lanun asked to become my vassal. I agreed and automatically declared war on their enemies including ... Agares. That means that infernals can't aford to accept free will vassals or they can get in heaps of trouble, sitting in all this hell terrain and all.

I see this as a big problem, too. I don't buy the idea that it's in any way justified.
I think, applicable civilizations who are at peace with Agares, should have that peace renewed every single turn, making it impossible to permanantly lose as long as you still fit the requirement.. It just doesn't make sense any other way.

Hell terrain seems to be ridiculously productive for infernals, 3 on fields of perdition and 2 on broken lands.

I noticed this too. I'm thinking paybe it's intended to make broken lands somewhat useful, since infernals don't get the food from it. IT does seem a bit much though.

Edit: mistformsthat spawn are hostile to infernals, that's just wrong. Probably because they're HN.

I forgot about this too. It's crippling. Mistforms are invisible, AND can pillage, as well as being quite a decent strength. I had this issue when playing a sheiam game recently. All the other demons left me alone just fine, but the mistforms destroyed my economy repeatedly and made it impossible to do anything.

The only choice I had, to save my empire, was to go into the unitinfos.xml and remove Hidden Nationality from mistforms.

Personally,. I don't think mistformss shold spawn at all for Agares, but if they do, they should at least not have HN, or be made to not attack players that are at peace with agares.

Were there units in those cities? Can get manes when evil living units die. I'm not sure but you might get manes from the population lost when an evil city changes hands.

I tried giving chislev cities to the bannor, by simply using the worldbuilder to put a square of bannor culture on the city. I'm not exactly sure what that causes to happen, but doing so gave me manes.

 

[TheGreatSteve]

Does the Conquest civic make cities lose extra population when captured? The tips suggest it does but i don't think it mentions it on the Civics page. It certainly seems perfect for the Infernals if it does, lets me keep the city and expand my territory while still getting the manes I would gain from razing.


And is it just me or is Pacifism one of the Infernals better choices in the category? War Weariness is meaningless to them, the happy bonus of religion is worthless for them. Between GK and super-city Dis the production penalty of Pacifism isn't a big deal, I'm still popping a unit every turn. And with my giant capital I've got tons of specialists to benefit from the GPP bonus. Don't need StW because they don't eat, don't need Consumption because I don't need happiness and overflow gold/spoils from conquering mean I'm running 0% gold.
I spend most of the game in Pacifism, and eventually switch to Liberty. Kind of odd for a demonic horde.

 

[WarKirby]

you have a good point., A lot of civic choices aren't much use to a fallow civ.

Personally, I think Sacrifice the Weak needs something extra that would benefit the infernals.

 

[Deon]

Well, this is where it goes. The demonic society is the best.
You don't starve, you don't get ill, you live in pacifism, you live in huge commons and you see wonderful creatures every day. A hippy paradise.
This means that the demons should bring the peace to Erebus, and other gods just try to kick them out to leave the possibility to starve, die of old age and feel pain and illness. This seems broken. I knew there's something wrong with FFH .

 

[TheGreatSteve]

you have a good point., A lot of civic choices aren't much use to a fallow civ.

Personally, I think Sacrifice the Weak needs something extra that would benefit the infernals.

Hmm. A small amount of "Sacrifice" events that can only take place while running StW. You can make various sacrifices to the dark gods in the hopes of receiving their blessing. Regular AV civs would get them but the rewards would be less, the Infernals would be the only ones to get full benefits. So something like


Your mages report that several of their number in City X have had vivid dreams in the past week. They see fires burning, and know the fire needs more to consume. What should we do?

-Make sure we have water around just in case one starts casting fire spells in his sleep. Otherwise ignore it. (Does nothing)
-Prepare a sacrifice for Bhall, she will grant us her unstoppable fury. (-pop in city X, 35% chance of no effect, 35% units in city gain a small buff, 25% you gain a few fire elementals, 5% you get a fire mana in the city)
-(Infernal only)Prepare a sacrifice for Bhall, she will grant us her unstoppable fury. And make sure the sacrifices are full of life and energy, she likes that. (-pop in city X, 25% units gain a small buff, 25% you gain a few fire elementals, 20% you gain a fire mana, 20% you get a very powerful fire creature, 10% you get 2 of those results)

Could have some fun with it. Only Hyborem knows that Mammon always wants a goat with his sacrifices, though no one knows why. Or Ceridwen hates the smell of burning flesh and wants the sacrifical pyres scented, preferably something floral.

 

[Vehem]

Personally,. I don't think mistformss shold spawn at all for Agares, but if they do, they should at least not have HN, or be made to not attack players that are at peace with agares.

They shouldn't - I don't think Agares has been allowed to spawn Mistforms for a few patches unless I'm missing something...

3 Hammers is over the top, you're right. I think I was aiming for 2 hammers, rather than the +2 I gave it...

Infernal terrain is now:
Burning Sand 1 1
Field of Perdition 2
Broken Land 2

 

[xalien]

I was personally playing with g patch, forgot to update before starting it although i didn't see it mentioned in a changelog thread. Mistforms actually show up belonging to Bhall if that makes any difference.

 

[xienwolf]

Everything HN will show up as belonging to Bhall.

 

[Vehem]

I was personally playing with g patch, forgot to update before starting it although i didn't see it mentioned in a changelog thread. Mistforms actually show up belonging to Bhall if that makes any difference.

Aye - it's not mentioned specifically, but it was part of one of the sets of tweaks to barbarians (along with the removal of various elementals and others that struck me as odd)

 

[WarKirby]

They shouldn't - I don't think Agares has been allowed to spawn Mistforms for a few patches unless I'm missing something...

3 Hammers is over the top, you're right. I think I was aiming for 2 hammers, rather than the +2 I gave it...

Infernal terrain is now:
Burning Sand 1 1
Field of Perdition 2
Broken Land 2

This seems more fair.

Not that it's going to make the slightest difference to my Size 240 , 1200 Dis

I'm just waiting to see how fast I can build Meshabber. I bet it's not long.

 

[zup]

Do you have the heroic epic in Dis?

 

[xalien]

Unless you've made the Dis an AV holy city you ain't gonna build Meshabber there. I personally prefer to consume my former civ and move the capital.

 

[WarKirby]

Unless you've made the Dis an AV holy city you ain't gonna build Meshabber there. I personally prefer to consume my former civ and move the capital.

Of course I did. I founded AV there on turn 2..
Ah, the virtues of playing infernal from the start

 

[xalien]

Can you do that with WB, start game as infernals?

 

[Valkrionn]

No, but you can do it with the civilization selector game option.