Info on Next Patch

This is the biggest thing that needs to change. A size 25 city should produce several hundred times as much base research as a size 1 city. I'm surprised I haven't seen more people call for this.

So, according to your logic Shanghai and Beijing (China), Mumbai and Delhi (India), Istanbul (Turkey) and even Karachi (Pakistan) are all beacons of scientific wisdom and knowledge and the mentioned countries are tech-leading superpowers.

No, sir!

What makes a city great in scientific research in real life is not its population, but the educational investiment and infrastructure. This part of the game is one of the few that actually makes sense: the population 1:1 relation with science isn't intended to be the gross of science, but to be its potential, it's the base from where educational buildings (the infrastructure) will take advantage of.

Because this much is true: if you have lots of people in one place and educate all of them, then you will have more scientific production.

A 1 sized city with all the scientific buildings is absolutely no match for a 25 sized city with the same buildings. I will also consider that your "hundred times more" was an hyperbolic expression, because if what you sugest was true, by 0 AD the civilizations would be in future era already.

So I really think this part of the game is fine and need no tweaking.
 
Are there any changes in the upcoming patch change log which will help stop early game, runaway AIs? Everytime I've play CiV so far, a few AIs completely (or almost completely) wipe out several other AIs by the Middle Ages. I play on a continents map and by the time I discover the "other" continent, one or two AIs are huge; while 8 or 9 AIs are either completely destroyed or down to just one or two cities.

I like to play with 16 civs on a large map. But before mid-game, there are usually only two or three super civs left. I expect some AI civs to be gone or down to just a couple of cities by mid-game; but not most. Does the upcoming patch show any hope of solving this problem? Because of this problem, I've never gotten past the middle ages without quitting my campaign. In Civ IV BtS, the industrial era was my favourite part of a campaign.

Perharps the nerfed mounted units that will no longer be suited to take cities, along with the improvement in defense buildings that will probably be a favorite for having no maintenance anymore, will slow down conquest for both human and AI players.

As for the argument of the game being too easy in industrial era if the AIs are volumous but small, that's a fault in the game caused by exploits like ICS and plain bugs like civs diplomacy while doing research agreements. Frequently I see civs that have just made a RA going into war and simply losing all the money invested and the opportunity of getting a new tech. This happens to me a lot, and it's frustrating. I mean, if the AI waited just 3 turns we both would get a tech to make our money and time valuable, but instead they declare war on me and waste their own chance of perharps get an edge on military units. That's extremely annoying to watch.

Also, if the difficulty to invade the AI increase (another desperately needed improvement to the game), it will be solved the same way: no more human player dominating, no more small-medium AI civs sucking at industrial era.

To allow that exploits and bugs persist and limit our games to big world wars between the only 2 existing civilizations in the late game, reasoning that it would be easier if weren't this way, is simply lamme.
 
What needs tweaking, IMHO, is the maintenance paid per scientific multiplier buildings. Make them so expensive to own, that only building them in the largest cities makes sense.

That could severely curtail ICS.

So, according to your logic Shanghai and Beijing (China), Mumbai and Delhi (India), Istanbul (Turkey) and even Karachi (Pakistan) are all beacons of scientific wisdom and knowledge and the mentioned countries are tech-leading superpowers.

No, sir!

What makes a city great in scientific research in real life is not its population, but the educational investiment and infrastructure. This part of the game is one of the few that actually makes sense: the population 1:1 relation with science isn't intended to be the gross of science, but to be its potential, it's the base from where educational buildings (the infrastructure) will take advantage of.

Because this much is true: if you have lots of people in one place and educate all of them, then you will have more scientific production.

A 1 sized city with all the scientific buildings is absolutely no match for a 25 sized city with the same buildings. I will also consider that your "hundred times more" was an hyperbolic expression, because if what you sugest was true, by 0 AD the civilizations would be in future era already.

So I really think this part of the game is fine and need no tweaking.
 
I'll just pop in to give my thumbs up on the latest batch of changes for the upcoming patch. I like them all. Really looking forward to giving it a whirl. Keep at it Firaxis.
 
What needs tweaking, IMHO, is the maintenance paid per scientific multiplier buildings. Make them so expensive to own, that only building them in the largest cities makes sense.

That could severely curtail ICS.

But one of the purposes of ICS is to delay the need of scientific buildings (cos you are already getting a decent amount of science from population). If you make scientific buildings super expensive you will hurt small, city-growing driven, civilizations, not ICS.
 
Anyone has any suggestions as to when this patch will come? I really can't play the game as it is right now and I am eager to try it out with the changes they've made.
 
the only problem I have the with social policy changes are that now, I'll never have anything past probably the commerce tree.

Exactly...I can't imagine being able to fully explore the industrial era trees (order or autocracy) after this change. You would have to have a small empire and lots of culture. Under those circumstance, you are probably going for a cultural victory anyway, and the benefits from those trees make no sense for that type of victory.
 
But one of the purposes of ICS is to delay the need of scientific buildings (cos you are already getting a decent amount of science from population). If you make scientific buildings super expensive you will hurt small, city-growing driven, civilizations, not ICS.
Then make it so that one doesn't get a decent amount of science from population. Easy.

Early techs (pottery, animal husbandry, fishing etc. - haven't played Civ V for 4 weeks now, may be forgetting the tech tree) would require much less Erlenmeyer flasks than the medium and advanced ones. Like, three orders of magnitude less. Modern era techs would require 5 orders of magnitude more Erlenmeyer flasks - basically, without universities you're SOL. A university could multiply a city's base scientific output by 5, but would cost 100 GPs/turn.
 
Then make it so that one doesn't get a decent amount of science from population. Easy.

Early techs (pottery, animal husbandry, fishing etc. - haven't played Civ V for 4 weeks now, may be forgetting the tech tree) would require much less Erlenmeyer flasks than the medium and advanced ones. Like, three orders of magnitude less. Modern era techs would require 5 orders of magnitude more Erlenmeyer flasks - basically, without universities you're SOL. A university could multiply a city's base scientific output by 5, but would cost 100 GPs/turn.

Are you serious? It doesn't seem like you've played this game at all to sugest something like that. No offense meant.

Balance is a very delicate thing, your sugestions have no balance argument so far, nor have you thought about the impact of your sugested changes in all strategies. Balance is to make your game viable for as many strategies as possible.

Once more, your sugestions doesn't fix the ICS problem, but encourages it. If you make population whorthless when it comes to science, but depend solely on buildings that cost much, then you will depend on gold. And the fact that you make tons of gold without getting a decent per city maintenance cost with ICS is another thing that encourages it.

ICS has many attractive positives and that's why it's considered a problem right now, not only science and gold. You should look for posts that discuss it to look at the big picture and realize that no single drastic change will counter ICS, but many are needed.
 
It's true that I just threw a $LARGESUM for maintenance cost of a mid-advanced scientific building. But let me try to argue this approach:

First of all, don't put words in my mouth. I never said population is worthless for science!! It does produce science, and is, in fact, the SOURCE of it - but by itself, without libraries, universities, biomed labs and observatories, it is feeble. This feeble scientific output is OK for the initial technologies and discoveries. But when you want serious scientific output, you will need a multiplier - a library could multiply by 2 the scientific output of that city's population. It could cost, say 10 GP/turn. Already this would encourage one to have a size 10 city rather than three size 5 cities. Then when you need the even beefier technologies and discoveries, you find that only a university, with it's further multiplier of 5, will suffice. But it will cost you, so you will only build it in the largest cities, where there is enough population to begin with (so that there is the initial scientific output to multiply with). So, as you see, population is crucial for science either way - but if you want much science, then you want to concentrate the scientific research in fewer, larger centers.

The production of wealth could be, likewise, concentrated with some institutions/buildings acting as multipliers of the initial wealth that the population of the city where the institutions/buildings are constructed. These would, again, cost a lot, so you are not going to put them in small rinky-dink cities, because they would cost more money then they would provide by multiplying the base wealth output.

These would encourage larger cities with vaster supporting surroundings.

Said all this, one could still go for the ICS, if she so choses: it could be a viable initial strategy when you are surrounded by numerous other civilizations - so you could go for ICS to have enough military units in the ring around your block of cities, and overrun a few other civs. Then perhaps you can switch to general growth mode.

Said all that, I personally hate a game that allows ICS, but to each her own.


Are you serious? It doesn't seem like you've played this game at all to sugest something like that. No offense meant.

Balance is a very delicate thing, your sugestions have no balance argument so far, nor have you thought about the impact of your sugested changes in all strategies. Balance is to make your game viable for as many strategies as possible.

Once more, your sugestions doesn't fix the ICS problem, but encourages it. If you make population whorthless when it comes to science, but depend solely on buildings that cost much, then you will depend on gold. And the fact that you make tons of gold without getting a decent per city maintenance cost with ICS is another thing that encourages it.

ICS has many attractive positives and that's why it's considered a problem right now, not only science and gold. You should look for posts that discuss it to look at the big picture and realize that no single drastic change will counter ICS, but many are needed.
 
I think that some really micro-intensive and annoying approaches will be developed in response to the social policy changes, as one example.

Yeah, it leads to horrible micromanaging by adjusting you culture production so you get a new policy just at a right turn etc. Removing the possibility to save a SP is a terrible mistake. It doesn't solve anything but makes a game more tedious or, if you don't want do to tedious micro, leaves less strategic options.
 
Instead of altering maintenance costs, multipliers, couldn't you just add a size requirement for a building? eg:

You can't build a settler in a Size one city, but you can fast buy markets, lighthouses, seaports, and universities, creating a virtual ghost city filled with modern marvels but containing only a handful of people.

I haven't studied why ICS works so well, but I do know it can provide you with tons of gold. You shouldn't be able to build a colosseum in every podunk town in your empire. This devalues what the building is all about. Imagine comparing Chicago's formally classic Soldier's Field to a small town's highschool football field. The small town couldn't afford a true sports colosseum, and even if the could build one, they could never keep it viable for lack of attendance. Therefore, the problem isn't that these buildings don't cost you enough, the problem is that you can stick them everywhere.

I've lived in small towns, practically villages, and they didn't have colosseums, universities, museums, or seaports. I've heard of some places where you have to drive an hour to get to a mall, or full featured bank. ICS is broken because buildings need a population requirement, in addition to production and maintenance costs.

EDIT: Not only do I think a building should have a population requirement, but the benefit of the building should be lost the moment your city's population drops below the level where you couldn't make the building in the first place, and you would still pay maintenance on the building, whether your city benefits from it or not, forcing you to sell it, reconfigure the improvements around the city to improve growth, or maintain relations with more maritime city states.
 
Sorry, but I can't agree with the above post ^. Declaring that a building can only be built if a city is size 10 is rigid, unnatural and unnecessary. It limits the strategist's choices to opt for such a building even if his cities are somewhat smaller, for instance because science is her immediate priority, and doesn't want to wait till some cities grow from 9 to 10. Perhaps they can't grow any larger at that point anyway. If she decides that paying the exorbitant maintenance costs makes sense at that point, why limit her choices in such arbitrary and artificial way?
 
My sincere suggestion to Firaxis is to keep doing stuff like this, but also provide a free mini-expansion that adds a mechanic or two to replace the depth that is lost. Personally, I'd opt for a 'mechanics only' mini expansion that adds sorely needed interest to the 'wheat' and 'cows' types of resources..

A lot of this is presently available through mods.
 
Are there any changes in the upcoming patch change log which will help stop early game, runaway AIs? Everytime I've play CiV so far, a few AIs completely (or almost completely) wipe out several other AIs by the Middle Ages. I play on a continents map and by the time I discover the "other" continent, one or two AIs are huge; while 8 or 9 AIs are either completely destroyed or down to just one or two cities.

I like to play with 16 civs on a large map. But before mid-game, there are usually only two or three super civs left. I expect some AI civs to be gone or down to just a couple of cities by mid-game; but not most. Does the upcoming patch show any hope of solving this problem? Because of this problem, I've never gotten past the middle ages without quitting my campaign. In Civ IV BtS, the industrial era was my favourite part of a campaign.

The changes in combat - including pathing - ought to slow down runaway AI
 
The changes in combat - including pathing - ought to slow down runaway AI

Now that the AI isn't doing insane things like move archer units near melee units to get a flanking bonus, it should help.
 
If the AI learned to fight, the game would get a lot harder - even if you play peacefully. As it is, the AI fails to take cities off other AIs all the time. If it got better, strong AIs would gobble up weak ones quickly, and become mega-empires that'd be proper opposition to a human.
 
If the AI learned to fight, the game would get a lot harder - even if you play peacefully. As it is, the AI fails to take cities off other AIs all the time. If it got better, strong AIs would gobble up weak ones quickly, and become mega-empires that'd be proper opposition to a human.

If the AI was smarter then I suspect it wouldn't need the cheats that make all these run-away situations possible.

Rat
 
Back
Top Bottom