1. We have added a Gift Upgrades feature that allows you to gift an account upgrade to another member, just in time for the holiday season. You can see the gift option when going to the Account Upgrades screen, or on any user profile screen.
    Dismiss Notice

Info Thread: Rise of the Shogunate

Discussion in 'Civ3 - Creation & Customization' started by Gen. Rommel, Mar 30, 2007.

  1. Gen. Rommel

    Gen. Rommel Wüstenfuchs

    Joined:
    Feb 6, 2007
    Messages:
    973
    Location:
    Krefeld, Germany
    I have recently decided to pick up playing the Sengoku scenario, which has always been my favorite of the lot included in the conquest expansion. However, there have always been things I wanted to change in the initial scenario which brings me to my latest project.

    First thing I basically wanted to change (or rather use instead) was the map. El Mency’s map of Japan is in my opinion greatly accurate and also reflects the terrain of Japan much better (e.g. the opting for greener terrain in El Mency’s map instead of the abundance of plains on the old map). Furthermore, the many mountain ranges present in Japan are represented better on this map and it also looks overall more attractive.

    Most notably is the addition of Hokkaido, meaning it can be an optional “what if” place of settlement. I will add a civ to depict the small kingdom present there during the time period; however, it shall not play an important role in the overall game (much like the Celts in the Roman conquests scenario).

    On the note of adding more civs, I’ve decided to add a considerable greater amount of civs to scenario that was initially done in the Sengoku scenario. My preference is to better represent the many small landmasses that each Daimyo was lord over. The old scenario made this aspect extremely unbalanced, leaving way too much room in the north for instance. Also, the starting cities of each Daimyo will be auto placed and much more accurately placed according to their historical (as well as modern) placement.

    Seeing as I am unskilled in the art of creating leaderheads, I am/was confronted with the challenge of what to do with the new civs. Therefore, making new flag banner leaderheads like in the old Sengoku scenario is not an option. Although I do have the appropriate flag designs saved on my comp, I don’t possess the know-how. I have instead opted for a static image in the typical Japanese block printing style.

    But I actually see this as an improvement over the old leaderheads. Generally, it was kind of hard to match the flags to a certain Daimyo in the game (especially in the beginning); even more so when the flag resembled that of another Daimyo (e.g. Date and Uesugi or Imagawa and Mogami). Additionally, it is much more interesting to have a face to refer to than some lifeless flag and the unique art style will add much more flavor to the scenario. This is similar to the ambient the leaderheads created in the “The Rise and Fall of the Mughals” scenario by Rambuchan and Luddi VII (which I would like to praise to the greatest extent; you guys set the bar high with this beauty!).

    This also applies for lots of the techs. Though I will still keep a majority of the tech icons, I have decided that adding some icons with traditional Japanese art simply helps to set a certain mood and also delve the player further into the time period.

    On the note of involving the player more, I will most likely compiling a soundtrack for this. Again in reference to “The Rise and Fall” scenario, the soundtrack set a distinct mood and was a contributing element to that scenarios great success. Since I liked that aspect so much, I will definitely be trying to add this as an optional download for those that would like it.

    There are many more extras and additions to the Sengoku scenario I have in mind but these will all be presented a bit later. For now, I would like to introduce the actual reason for this thread (which was actually not meant to introduce the scenario yet, but oh well :D ).

    I have gotten some of the leaderheads done already and need some opinions on two of them:


    ^This is the leaderhead for the Takeda Clan. I made three variations of him but am undecided on which would be best for the scenario. This is where you guys come in. Could you just tell me which one is your favorite to make my decision easier?




    ^Same thing as above but in this case, you only have two to choose from. Tell me which one fits best.




    ^The newest addition I’ve made. I felt the resource palette needed a complete revamp for this scenario. The new resources I’ve been able to finish so far are two variations of sushi (each in two sizes) and a rice ball. I feel the rice ball looks like crap but maybe you guys will like it (although my personal dissatisfaction will probably lead me to creating a different image after all but do voice your opinion nonetheless). Mainly, I need two opinions. First and most important is which version of sushi I should use. Which one looks more like sushi in your opinion because I don’t want anything not resembling the resource properly? The orange colored piece is salmon (sake) and the red one tuna nigiri (maguro). The white thing next to that is the rice ball. I added default resources as a size and overall look reference.

    Oh and before someone jumps down my throat, I am completely aware that sushi didn’t originate until the Edo-Period. However, I personally feel this will be something that adds some needed flavor to the scenario and further immerse the player. I will sacrifice realism for playing purposes in this case (I swear its one of the few exceptions). ;)
     
  2. Virote_Considon

    Virote_Considon The Great Dictator

    Joined:
    Jul 7, 2004
    Messages:
    9,330
    Location:
    Skaville UK Reputation: 1
    I'll like to see how this plays out :)

    Onto buisness:
    LH's:
    1. Top-Left
    2. Right

    Sushi:
    2nd style, smaller. (Although I dunno anything 'bout sushi 'ppart from I don't like it! :p)
     
  3. Gen. Rommel

    Gen. Rommel Wüstenfuchs

    Joined:
    Feb 6, 2007
    Messages:
    973
    Location:
    Krefeld, Germany
    Thanks Virote! Your opinion helps alot. :goodjob:

    I'll try to get this done as soon as possible so that you can see what it turns into ultimately.

    By the way, get your Greek scenario done already! ;)
     
  4. Virote_Considon

    Virote_Considon The Great Dictator

    Joined:
    Jul 7, 2004
    Messages:
    9,330
    Location:
    Skaville UK Reputation: 1
    'm working on it!
     
  5. Gen. Rommel

    Gen. Rommel Wüstenfuchs

    Joined:
    Feb 6, 2007
    Messages:
    973
    Location:
    Krefeld, Germany
    I have an update of the resources. I have officially added sushi, rice, and soybeans to the resource list for this scenario. I made a brand new rice icon because the rice ball, while quite a tasty treat, looked like ass in my opinion (in real, they look quite delicious actually). The soybean icon is also a brand new image and turned out quite nice (it seems very civ-like because it looks so plasticy). I also updated the sushu piece to blend in better with the civ graphics and am pretty satisfied with the outcome (though my perfectionist nature will probably have me tinkering with it later on after all).


    You can see two sushi maguro pieces in the northern and western part of the map. There are also two soy beans in the bottom right and bottom left corner of the picture. The rice is locateable in Nagoya's city radius. Let me here some comments. Anything will suffice as long as I get a general picture of what the masses like (or possibly don't).
     
  6. Virote_Considon

    Virote_Considon The Great Dictator

    Joined:
    Jul 7, 2004
    Messages:
    9,330
    Location:
    Skaville UK Reputation: 1
    Looks good to me! :)

    Have you used Rhye's colours?
     
  7. ShiroKobbure

    ShiroKobbure Still modding Civ3

    Joined:
    Aug 16, 2003
    Messages:
    5,550
    Location:
    Here
    The name is little strange, because Japan was first controlled by a Shogun during the Kamakura Period in 1185, and since then it has been different Shogun families to run Japan until the Meiji period.
    Maybe have rice replace gold. Since that is how taxes were collected.
     
  8. Gen. Rommel

    Gen. Rommel Wüstenfuchs

    Joined:
    Feb 6, 2007
    Messages:
    973
    Location:
    Krefeld, Germany
    Well the name isn't permanent yet. I actually feel like changing it once the final product is unveiled but until then, I'll just keep it like it is. I already plan to change the currency of gold to kiku
    however, I was unable to find the area in the editor to do it. Any ideas?

    A small note to your comment though:

    It is quite true that their were many shoguns before this period (Sengoku) but none amounted to the combined feats of Oda Nobunaga, Toyotomi Hideyoshi, and Tokugawa Ieyasu. Nobunaga started the process of uniting Japan by bringing all of central Japan under his control and gaining the support of various other daimyos to further consolidate his rule. However, the irony of history would have it that he was betrayed by one of his most trusted generals, Akechi Mitsuhide. Hideyoshi thereafter continued Nobunaga's work until he himself also met his end (natural death in this case). At that point, Tokugawa achieved the complete unification of Japan, his clan ruling the whole of Japan essentially for more than 200 years. That is why when one refers to the "Rise of the Shogunate", it's obvious that that's a reference to the most famous shogunate of them all (similar to how everyone only thinks of the "famous" Cleopatra when they here that name although there were many before her).

    Oh, almost forgot to ask! What's your thought on the leaderheads above? Which ones would you prefer?

    Indeed I have! I like the new colors he added alot though I think I shall create some of my own in the future as well (replacing even more of those obscure colors). How were you able to tell anyways? Was it that really small blue city border to the left?
     
  9. ShiroKobbure

    ShiroKobbure Still modding Civ3

    Joined:
    Aug 16, 2003
    Messages:
    5,550
    Location:
    Here
    But Oda and Toyotomi were not Shogun.

    I really want a good Sengoku-Jidai mod. If this one becomes more than just talk, I will make leaderheads for the daimyo and tech icons. The other Sengoku-jidai mod isn't historical enough.

    Some segestions:
    Korean and Ryukyu being unplayable civs. This can allow trading and for historical events like the Toyotomi invasion of Korea, and the Shimazu invasion of the Ryukyu.
    Why is sushi a resource?

    If you need ideas for UUs or info just ask.
     
  10. Virote_Considon

    Virote_Considon The Great Dictator

    Joined:
    Jul 7, 2004
    Messages:
    9,330
    Location:
    Skaville UK Reputation: 1
    Yup! I thought to myself "Hey, the Dorians are there... wait a second, Rommel must've been using Rhye's colours" :p
     
  11. Gen. Rommel

    Gen. Rommel Wüstenfuchs

    Joined:
    Feb 6, 2007
    Messages:
    973
    Location:
    Krefeld, Germany
    1. Indeed Nobunaga and Hideyoshi did not bear the title shogun. However, they were well on their way to claiming the title; it was merely a question of how long it would have taken had they not died. Had Toyotomi not met such a crushing defeat in the Imjin war, he may have been able to unite Japan before Tokugawa.

    2. Well, I don't know how high your standards are in this respect, but I definitely hope to turn this scenario into something special (not something that takes a few weeks to throw together). The reason I do this is actually for myself. I wish to create something I can truly play to jump into the role of a Sengoku-era Japanese. I want something extremely ambiental that grips the player.

    3. I was considering the idea of adding Korea but I also immediately got to thinking that this may draw away from inner Japanese conflicts ensuing in the land during this time. I could probably make contact with the Koreans only allowable late in the game to keep attention focused on Japan first. Maybe by merely limiting the movement of ships and where they are able to move without sinking. But again, I feel this may place the focus somewhere else so I will decide this at a later date once I have the scenario almost done. I could of course make variations of the same scenario, with one allowing Korean contact and the other not, for instance. We'll see.

    4. Why is sushi a resource? Good question! Actually, not much reasoning behind it other than I think it fits the setting better and I like to see the processed version of fish in the map rather than ones still jumping around in coastal terrain squares. Anyways, sushi is too delicious to leave out. Not what I said above though: I know sushi wasn't available in its current form until about the Edo-Period but I think it looks quite good on the map nonetheless. There will be little historical inaccuracies like this in the scenario, no worries.

    5. I'd love to hear some ideas for unique units and technologies that I could add. Only problem with the former is that I can't create units so I'm limited to the units floating around on the forums. But if you have something in mind, be my guest... ;)
     
  12. Gen. Rommel

    Gen. Rommel Wüstenfuchs

    Joined:
    Feb 6, 2007
    Messages:
    973
    Location:
    Krefeld, Germany
    Almost forgot! Which of these looks better:


    The way Tokugawa looks right now.

    Same image with aging effects added to make it looks older.


    Normal Nobunaga image.

    Nobunaga with aging effects.



    This is the style that the aged images are supposed to resemble (I haven't done anything to this image; this is the way it normally looks). Do you guys like this effect or is it absolute rubbish?
     
  13. Ogedei_the_Mad

    Ogedei_the_Mad Caffeinated Khagan

    Joined:
    Feb 15, 2004
    Messages:
    3,361
    Location:
    Moved back into the kimchi jar
    I agree with Shirou that "Rise of the Shogunate" isn't a good title since there were previous Shogunates predating the Sengoku Jidai. How about "Ambition" for a title? I think that would suit the scenario rather well, considering that it was an "every-man-for-himself" age!

    Several other things to consider are the Wako pirates and to somehow represent the silver trade. Japan was the world's largest exporter of silver. It's largest customer was China and was mostly done through illegal trade. Perhaps a building or wonder could represent that.

    By the way, it's "koku" not "kiku". ;) To change that, you'd have to modify the "Labels" text file.
     
  14. Quinzy

    Quinzy Chieftain

    Joined:
    Jul 16, 2005
    Messages:
    5,402
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Éire
    Sushi shouldn't be a resource. It's the equivalent of, like, a sandwich resourse or something.

    The bottom one on the 1st, the right one on the 2nd.

    Other than that, i'll follow this, and steal ideas ;)
     
  15. Gen. Rommel

    Gen. Rommel Wüstenfuchs

    Joined:
    Feb 6, 2007
    Messages:
    973
    Location:
    Krefeld, Germany
    As I said, I'm definitely thinking of changing the title. The title "Ambition" isn't bad but I also feel it doesn't reveal much about the scenario. Many different scenario settings could fit to a title such as "Ambition". How about these possible titles:

    1. Struggle for Nihon-koku: Intrigue of the Daimyo

    2. Bushido: Age of the Sword

    3. Sei-i Taishōgun: Blade of Fury

    4. Shogun: Total War (j/k ;) )

    The pirates will defintiely be an addition to the scenario. I fell this will help to make the seas around Japan "un-safe" for the Daimyo, and their already weak navys will be further threatened. Since naval warfare didn't play such a major role druing the Sengoku-Period (with few exceptons), I think this will be an excellent compliment to the scenario. Should I make them an actual civ or just add them as roaming barbarians?

    I like the idea of the silver trade. I'll definitely be thinking about a way to incorporate this as a special element for this scenario. If you could give me some general information on where to place the silver resource icons, I will gladly do so. After that, we can think of how to do the wonder/building. Could you by chance make a graphic for it? You are the specialist when it comes to Asian buidlings and the like afterall. ;)

    I swear that was a typo!!! Look at the keyboard! The "i" is right next to the "o"! :D

    A good point...but then again, with this logic, sake should also be removed. Just like sushi, sake represents a processed form of another resource, in this case rice, from which the fermented liquid we all love and know is produced. If general opinion of the sushi is truly so bad, I will take it out. But I do want to say that I think its a cool resource. Seems not everyone shares my sentiments. :(

    Thanks for your opinion! It helps me to narrow down the best LHs better. And feel free to use the ideas. I'd be a liar if I claimed that I haven't been inspired by other people and their work before.
     
  16. Quinzy

    Quinzy Chieftain

    Joined:
    Jul 16, 2005
    Messages:
    5,402
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Éire
    So wouldn't the answer be to put rice in, and in the pedia explain about sake and other such uses for rice? :)
     
  17. Ogedei_the_Mad

    Ogedei_the_Mad Caffeinated Khagan

    Joined:
    Feb 15, 2004
    Messages:
    3,361
    Location:
    Moved back into the kimchi jar
    One way to include sake as a luxury without arbitrarily placing it as a resource is to make "Rice" a strategic resource (though a more readily available one) and have a building called "Sake Shop" that produces 1 happiness and requires "Rice."

    If you need any buildings, just ask away. ;)
     
  18. Gen. Rommel

    Gen. Rommel Wüstenfuchs

    Joined:
    Feb 6, 2007
    Messages:
    973
    Location:
    Krefeld, Germany
    Yeah, but if I remove a vast amount of the custom resources from the scenario, it takes away from the charm and setting...or am I just being a bit narrow-minded here? I just thought that a revamp of the resource line-up would help the scenario be more unique. If of course you have some other ideas for resources that could be unique to this scenario, I'm all ears. Generally, this should be something inque to Japan.

    By the way, did I mention that sushi is a strategic resource and is necassary for the city improvement, sushi-ya (sushi restaurant) which improves food production on tiles containing sushi within the city radius and makes two citizens happy (could be altered to make more than two citizens happy). Not a good idea?
     
  19. Gen. Rommel

    Gen. Rommel Wüstenfuchs

    Joined:
    Feb 6, 2007
    Messages:
    973
    Location:
    Krefeld, Germany
    In that case, don't mind if I do! :D

    First would be that silver trading wonder/building you proposed. Whether it is a normal building or wonder can be determined later, but for now the image is what's important. I'm leaning towards making this a small wonder, though, so it should definitely look more noticeable than standard improvements.

    My second request for now would be that sushi-ya building. If not for the sake of this scenario (in the case that popular demand wants it removed) I will definitely be needing this for another Japan scenario I'm planning, so making it wouldn't result in it going to waste.

    Definitely cool if you could make those things for me! I'm sure there are more that I'll possibly need but I don't want to push my luck hehe. :D
     
  20. Ogedei_the_Mad

    Ogedei_the_Mad Caffeinated Khagan

    Joined:
    Feb 15, 2004
    Messages:
    3,361
    Location:
    Moved back into the kimchi jar
    Not necessarily. Simply include more unique city improvements. Cities and buildings are what gives a civilization character. At least that's my view. ;)

    That's not possible in the Civ3 editor. You can only increase food production in water tiles, not resource tiles.

    I'll get to it when I have the time. :D
     

Share This Page