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Info Thread: Rise of the Shogunate

Discussion in 'Civ3 - Creation & Customization' started by Gen. Rommel, Mar 30, 2007.

  1. Cloner4000

    Cloner4000 Call of Duty

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    yea, I can do that,I'll ask my friend to help me look over during the weekends. I did try to help with the editor part, but I am pretty much a programming novice and can't put 1+1 into programing language.

    I could help you with researching and writing/finding civilpedia entry or finding pictures so you could format them into the type Civ 3 takes.
     
  2. Cloner4000

    Cloner4000 Call of Duty

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    well...its 1:15 Am here and will, I am finally done with reading it...Since I don't know what you still need I'll just post idea which you can than tell me if you still need it or not and add new ones you need me to help with.(Mainly concerning some research, finding pictures, I could definately help with Civilpedia)

    1) I was reading about the conflict between big and small Daiymos and I thought it MIGHT be a good idea to tied several smaller one (2 or 3) together is a factions so overall you might have 2 or 3 smaller factions compose of small Daiymos. As many of them to team up together and form alliances. They could just than uses the original Flag as the generic representations of the group.

    2) Some thought to LH, I think the ones with static picture you put up, are very nice with a lot of traditional Japanese Flavor, where as the ones you have to specially made might looks more lively, is a lot of work given the amount of LH you need and I don't think really affect the game play as much.
    As my previous post states, you might want to leave this to future updates of the scenario.

    3)Did you still need the maps of demographics? Is so try stating a specific period and I'll have my friend look it up for me if possible.

    4) Also how did you go over about the whole Government type thing? I think having one fedualism is pretty uninventive. I thought since feudalism is already implemented, we could instead uses Religion, I think even back than there is different sect of Buddism, and Shinto belief, you can use it to develop into different government with specific trait.
     
  3. Gen. Rommel

    Gen. Rommel Wüstenfuchs

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    Sounds good!

    Yeah, I was already introduced to the idea of tying in smaller daimyo into one bigger unified civ, but essentially, I was confronted with the problem of overpowering this bigger daimyo civ. And luckily, the way everything is setup right now, every daimyo has about the same strength and size of territories. There are a few exceptions, for instance the Mori who have a substantial amount of land and also are unquestionably the biggest daimyo'dom. Others, such as Takeda Shingen and Uesugi Kenshin have substantially stronger armies, to give them an according advantage from the get-go and somewhat bias the games to go into a certain direction. But for the most part, everyone has about the same chance to establish their control over the Japanese islands. That's why there are no more concerns on that subject. ;)

    Exactly my thoughts (and I believe Ogedei also agreed with me on that aspect). I'm not going to make animated leaderheads a priority, at least for now. Who knows, maybe once the scenario becomes a hit (which I hope it does), some leaderhead makers will lend their support to get this aspect done.

    Well, I do have a general populous dispersion in place right now, but to be honest, it is anything but accurate. In fact, I had to create a rule of thumb, where I placed populations counts for the five biggest cities (Kyoto, Osaka, Kobe, Hiroshima, and Nagoya) the highest, and just categorized the others as: big city, medium city, and small city. I had little to go on as to how to categorize each, so this aspect definitely could use some serious revision. if your friend could get a hold of some hard factual numbers, it would definitely help to improve the accuracy. In terms of the starting period, either demographics from the end of the Muromachi Period or demographics from the beginning of the Azuchi-Momoyama Period.

    A similar concern of mine at first. However, I came to the same apparent conclusion as you, and see it as only logical to not use governments at all, but rather turn that aspect into a system of religions (similar to the system in place in the MEM mod). Anything else would just be a waste of time and also make this feature worthless for the scenario. I would need a comprehensive amount of possible religions though (I'm hoping Ogedei can offer some insight here, as I think he may have some very good knowledge about east Asian religions as a whole). I think there are definitely three basic religions: Shintoism, Buddhism, and Christianity. I'm sure some conversions of these three could also make it into the game (at least for the first two, since Christianity didn't see any alterations in Japan during this time). Confucianism could also maybe be brought in as a general philosophical outlook, which religion essentially is. Any ideas, opinions, or suggestions here?
     
  4. Cloner4000

    Cloner4000 Call of Duty

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    Alright...so here are my task for now...

    Map of Japan's Population during Azuchi-Momoyama Period.

    and a list/characteristic of different Religions in Japan...
     
  5. Gen. Rommel

    Gen. Rommel Wüstenfuchs

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    Yeah, if you could get those two things taken care of, I'd hugely appreciate it! Cheers mate! :beer:
     
  6. Cloner4000

    Cloner4000 Call of Duty

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    Ha, no luck, I can only list the general religon, I guess not every Japanese is a expert in Sengoku period XD. Any rate, I think I'll go over to my university library to see if I can find any thing interesting. They should at least have something useful. I am still working on the map, I'll post as soon as I found anything.
     
  7. Ogedei_the_Mad

    Ogedei_the_Mad Caffeinated Khagan

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    The big religion in Japan at the time was Buddhism. Shintoism was also a large part of local beliefs and the emperor and his court took part in its rituals. Christianity entered Japan when the Europeans arrived. Some feudal lords embraced it or at least tolerated it (mostly because Europeans brought arquebuses) and so there were instances of Christian samurai or daimyo that supported or maintained contacts with missionaries. Confucianism did not really take off until the Edo Period (although it was a philosophical influence in Japan at this time). Now as for Buddhism, there were numerous sects and certain Buddhist temples did contend with daimyo for power (such as the conflict between Oda Nobunaga and the monks of Hiei). I'm not sure if they conflicted with one another or which were the major sects involved in politics and warfare since it's been a while since I looked at my sources...
     
  8. Cloner4000

    Cloner4000 Call of Duty

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    Well..I did quick glance at Wiki and turn out the following...

    ****o
    As Ogedei said, there isn't really a said ****oism in Japanse until after 16th centuary, however, elements of it was practice and merge with aspect of Buddhism. Anyway, two possible name for sect of religion for ****o are : Tenrikyo, which is a term coined for ****oism a little after Sengoku period during early 17th centuary. The other is Shushigaku (Shushi School) which is a ****o Sect, with heavy influence from Confucianism belief), which is introduced in the 12th centuary.

    The Buddhism which flourish from 6th to 16th century, however had many sects.

    The two main ones are Shingon and Tendai with Zen Buddhism more of a Chinese and nature affinity.

    Then there is a more radical Nichiren Buddhism and Jodo-Kyo (JodoShinshu) which were popular among the Merchent and Peasant.

    There are also power Buddhism local Sect such as Ikkosect and Enryakuji which are very wealthy and have its own military (Warrior Monks mostly).

    In term of Christianity the main one is Catholic Christianity with a few Protestantism and Roman Catholicism.

    I haven't really look into the specific and their charactersitic yet. I think that should be most of the sect of Japanese Religion out there...you should choose a few that you think make sense and I'll do more research on them.

    Also, while I was researching, I would come accros some old Japanese Literature, shoudl I write down the name as well? They usually serve as a Great Wonder that can be build. Example off the top of my mind are Beowulf in Anglo-Saxon mod.
     
  9. Ogedei_the_Mad

    Ogedei_the_Mad Caffeinated Khagan

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    The "Ikko Ikki" warrior monks were one major faction of Buddhist militant monks under the Jodo-Shinshu sect. They were the fanatics that gave Oda Nobunaga quite a headache. The Ikko Ikki faction's intent was to topple the power of the feudal order and establish the Jodo-Shinshu across Japan.

    It also appeared that warrior monks also fought one another. In the Wikipedia article on Honganji, it is stated that the Tendai sect assaulted it three times. I don't trust online sources too much, but recalling from my old material on the matter, there were no doubt various power struggles between the Tendai, Shinshu, and Nichiren sects. Too bad I forgot to bring my resources on Japanese history and culture to Korea...

    Regarding literary works as wonders: Great works of art were not prevalent during the Sengoku Jidai. It's mostly really in the more peaceful eras (such as the Heian and Edo Periods) that the major Japanese artistic and architectural pieces were produced. There were various paintings that were indicative of the rising merchant class produced during the Azuchi-Momoyama Period as well as a variety of elegant landscape paintings that decorated the daimyos' castles, but these weren't considered "classics." For literature, the masterworks were produced during the Heian and Edo Periods also.

    Nishi Honganji (West Honganji) was built during this time so that could work as a possible wonder.
     
  10. Cloner4000

    Cloner4000 Call of Duty

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    Can you give me a specific timeline for the scenario? It'll be easier for me to research some stuff. As for the map, I don't think such statistic exist or was even availible at the time. Apparently any basic census was done during the Tokugawa regime, but not before, so its probabaly impossible to find any written work on it. I've spend an hour or so at the libarary and nothing of the sort comes up. I'll try asking the libararian, but I doubt they'll actually know anything. I do know, however that our libarary have Map of Japan for government record and stuff which mean they are probably really accurate. If you need it, just tell me and I can check it out.

    Edit: i did a search on the web and found a interesting forum thread, you should check it out.
    http://forums.totalwar.org/vb/archive/index.php/t-3919.html

    Anyway I found a couple interesting book and one of which deal specifically with the Protugeese's arrival in Japan and the Teppoki and its spread on part of Japan. And there is list of Kanji term with Teppo-Tai, which translate to Rifle team should work as one of the name for the early rfile units.

    And as for Art and Literature, Muromachi is actually consider one of the more refine age where suiboku painting, landscape gardening, and tea ceremony were perfected. Since I take it that the scenario starts on the late Muromachi-age, these should be things to think about.

    The Muromachi Religion focus mainly on the emergence of Zen buddhism and Nichiren along side Shingon and Tendei, all of which incorporate aspect of ****oism. In effect, there is no actual religion base solely on ****oism till Tokugawa era.

    Daikan-Deputy or supervisor ( I think this should replace the word Governor in the game..if possible).

    I also find a map of various "county" of Japan during the Sengoku Jidai that is color code to specific warlord. I'll scan that in the next day or two and PM it or just post it here.

    Edit: This is a website for the mod of the game Shogun : Total war, no idea what it is..but the site contain some very interesting informations.
    http://www.darthveda.com/sengoku/clans.html
    There is also a map of Segoku Jidai Japan but are not very accurate I believe especily the ronin and the Usesugi part


    I also suggest that maybe make the Koga and Iga a stand along country, because during the Segoku period, they are basically self-ruled. I was thinking that their should be a generic ninja which all Daiymo can use and clan-specific Ninja that you can only build after trading with either the Iga or Koga,which is like a one city countries, for the so called "Ninja resources" or you could be like Oda just conquear the area with overwhelming forces and claim the resourc to produce your own Ninja. Or you can pay and negoiate the clans to fight for you. This is my excuse for using all the Ninja units made on the forum. XD
     
  11. Ogedei_the_Mad

    Ogedei_the_Mad Caffeinated Khagan

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    Regarding Muromachi art: It's true that this was the period when the Zen arts flourished, but many of the masterworks were produced in the early period (before the Onin War and before the Sengoku Jidai). The great works of Kao and Josetsu were all in the early 1400s, decades before the Onin War. There was Sesshu and Shubun, but you're going to have to clarify what exactly you mean by "late Muromachi" (the Muromachi Period officially ended in 1573).

    That's not to say that no art was produced in this period, of course. The Kano school (particularly the works of Kano Eitoku) was quite prominent during the Azuchi-Momoyama Period. I'm not sure, however, if these were considered masterworks at the time (remember that the Edo ukiyo-e weren't really appreciated as high art until much later).
     
  12. Gen. Rommel

    Gen. Rommel Wüstenfuchs

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    Wow, lots of posting here lately hehe!

    As for religion, it seems you guys have posted massive amounts of information and I should now have enough to build a system off of. Thanks to both of you for investing your time. I also wish to note that the Hongwanji actually act as their own ruling civ in this scenario, since their influence on central western Japan was quite significant. Their unique unit is of course the Yamabushi.

    As for your finds of maps Cloner, I don't think they are necassary. As I have stated, I have already used various references to get a pretty damn near accurate map up that also considers the balancing factor needed in the scenario. So that aspect of scenario is actually completely done. And if it's impossible to find any statistical information concerning demographics of the time, it's no matter. I'll just leave it the way it is for the time being and maybe fine tune it later when people start testing it.

    Thanks for your guys' contributions so far!
     
  13. Cloner4000

    Cloner4000 Call of Duty

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    Well, the only thing I've deducted if that some educated guess from couple people who've read up the stuff to Japan's population aroud 17 million around the time..since I think you know the population of all the major city, you can than roughly distribute it around the map.

    Did you have a rough draft of the tech tree availble? If so, me or my friend could maybe pick out and change of the names from the original Segoku Mod that are very much out of place. I could also start making entries for some of the warlords if you wish as I got some book with the subject matter.
     
  14. Ogedei_the_Mad

    Ogedei_the_Mad Caffeinated Khagan

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    The largest concentrations of people were historically in the Kansai and Kanto regions. Japan was overwhelmingly agrarian in pre-industrial periods and even through the early Meiji Era so the most populated areas were areas with the most arable land.
     
  15. ShiroKobbure

    ShiroKobbure Still modding Civ3

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  16. Cloner4000

    Cloner4000 Call of Duty

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    Wow...this is great...I know three of them would definately be needed..and the last one...I am sure we can make up something to go along with it XD...

    this is great.
     
  17. ShiroKobbure

    ShiroKobbure Still modding Civ3

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    update, the Mori have a head now.
    I did all of these today. All the men are actually Meiji, I just change the texture and some facial features. I hope they don't look too similar.
    Tachibana Ginchiyo was the leader of the Tachibana clan for about 5 years, until she married. The Tachibana were retainers of the Otomo. So She would be the leader of the Otomo clan
     
  18. Stazro

    Stazro Prince

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    You're no man, you're a leaderhead machine, are you?
     
  19. ShiroKobbure

    ShiroKobbure Still modding Civ3

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  20. ShiroKobbure

    ShiroKobbure Still modding Civ3

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