Informal Survey On Design Curriculum

[Blue Monkey]

Many of you know me from the C3 C&C forum. I am also an educator, semiotician, and now beginning a new academic life as an anthropologist. I am in the early stages of research on curricula appropriate to the 21st century. The overall project is about communities of people who create worlds – in this case you, the modding community of CivFanatics. You can help by telling me about what subject areas contribute to designing your worlds/scenarios. These may be subjects you studied in school or learned more informally. You are welcome to include things like scripting/programming languages or 3D modeling. But I am more interested in learning what you consider helpful to designing the world/scenario itself rather than game mechanics.

Absolutely no identifying information (including avatars/names) will be kept. Early responses will be included in a presentation at the James Young Colloquium at University of California, Riverside on March 14th. The final results will be available in early May. Final results of the survey will be made available to the CFC community.

 

[Blue Monkey]

1. What subjects have you studied in the past or are studying now that help you in creating the worlds/scenarios you are interested in?

2. What subjects do you feel you don't know enough about that would make creating the kind of worlds/scenarios you are interested in easier or more rewarding?
​

These may be subjects you studied in school or learned more informally. You are welcome to include things like knowledge of scripting/programming languages or 3D modeling. But I am more interested in learning what you consider helpful to designing the world/scenario itself rather than the game mechanics.


A simple list of subjects important to you as a world/scenario creator is what I'm looking for. You are welcome to post any additional comments appropriate to the survey topic. Questions about the survey or overall project are welcome as well.

 

[Kyriakos]

Hm, this sounds rather interesting. Given you mentioned it is for an anthropologic study/presentation, can you say more about the specific focus of the study? Ie is it centered on human creation of otherwordly environments? Does it have direct links to computer-based environments? (eg a game).

Good luck.

 

[Blue Monkey]

Glad you asked that. There is a small and growing body of ethnographic studies of virtual worlds - which is construed broadly enough to include everything from Second Life to GTA. The emphasis is almost universally on what it is like to be a "resident" - i.e. what is the "culture" of WOW based what players do there. I'm more interested in looking at communities of creators - which includes those of us who through modding create new worlds. Within anthropology there is some discussion of techne vs. episteme as a driving force of culture - practical necessity & skills vs. abstract ethics and metaphysics. This survey is one way of starting to look at what knowledge & skills world-builders find necessary. Hope that answers your question. I don't want to say too much else about my pov on the debate or my specific thesis at this point because I don't want to prejudice what anyone else might find important. I'll happily post whatever may be of interest after this particular study ends in May.

Given the breadth of your own creative interests, Kyriakos, I look forward to hearing what your responses to the two questions may be.

 

[Greizer85]

The quote in your sig will go on my spiritual top shelf (not that I will mend my ways), so I feel obliged to participate.

I made a few maps in Civ III for me and my friends' personal use. In Civ IV I was too busy playing to make maps. Then in Civ V I made a Standard size world map that I tried to make as perfect as possible. The lack of feedback and the limitations of Civ V (small map size or dead computer, the horrible Steam mod system) turned me off for the time being though, and I started a map and a mod project in Civ II, of all things. Seems I'm always 10 years too late, or 18 in this case eek.

My mod project is greatly hindered by the fact that I have no tecnical skills to speak of. My main -- and sole -- talent has always been writing, and even there I'm far too lazy to rise to any notable level of excellence. My knowledge of history is very spotty, even when it comes to my own country; I have no patience for stuffy reading, and I find most non-novel books to be very stuffy. I aim to circumvent these shortcomings firstly by choosing Civ II as the platform of modding (since it is easiest of all the Civ games to modify), and secondly by making the scenario as much about myths and archetypes as it is about 'real' history. E.g. there is a famous distillery, Koskenkorvan Viina, which replaces J.S. Bach's Cathedral in my scenario, granting precious happiness.

Of course I would like to learn more skills to help my modding, but my pursuits and interests are extremely fickle and fleeting. A skill such as Civ II events making is useless in all other avenues of life, and it seems fairly trial-and-error to learn since most of the available guides have been lost to the sands of time, and few people are modding Civ II these days. I've had some great help from the community in other issues, though, and I'm sure they'll come through for any other problems that may manifest along the way.

Graphical skills are another area where I could do with a lot of practice, and there the applications would be more universal. Again though I've no patience for it. I'm not a visual person at all; if you were to drag me away from this room, where I've abode for 7 years now, I could hardly describe the color of the walls, much less draw them in any obvious resemblance.

Programming is something of an arcane craft for me; I can't imagine I'd ever learn how to talk to computers, since people are a great enough challenge already. It would come in *very* handy to be able to fix flaws like ships not being able to be designated as Trade units, though. One of the main aims of my scenario is to remove or mitigate what I perceive as exploits, such as the 'infinite overseas Caravan spam' tactic that is a staple of high-level Civ II gameplay atm.

Oh -- I haven't studied anything formally, unless you count high-school level writing and drawing courses. I retain few memories of those things, and for that I'm grateful. I find experience to be the best teacher, and my experiences of various schools have taught me to steer clear of them.

TL;DR (I wonder if research papers will have these in the future? ): Map making and starter-level Civ II modding, little skills, lots of enthusiasm, willing to learn but too lazy to actually do it (unless it's very easy).

 

[Ogedei_the_Mad]

I received my BA from UC Riverside.

Also nice to know that there's a fellow anthropologist here on CFC.

1. What subjects have you studied in the past or are studying now that help you in creating the worlds/scenarios you are interested in?

2. What subjects do you feel you don't know enough about that would make creating the kind of worlds/scenarios you are interested in easier or more rewarding?
​

These may be subjects you studied in school or learned more informally. You are welcome to include things like knowledge of scripting/programming languages or 3D modeling. But I am more interested in learning what you consider helpful to designing the world/scenario itself rather than the game mechanics.


A simple list of subjects important to you as a world/scenario creator is what I'm looking for. You are welcome to post any additional comments appropriate to the survey topic. Questions about the survey or overall project are welcome as well.

1. I actually started out as a Creative Writing major, but found myself more fascinated by cultural studies. As you might have guessed from my creations here, a lot of my stuff is informed by academic research on East Asia (and to a lesser extent, Southeast Asian and Buddhist Studies). But I don't like throwing together "Asian" stuff for the sake of making it look "Asian" without any rhyme or reason - that approach is so...Hollywood. I especially don't like having alternate worlds look simply like a hodgepodge of this and that; I think there has to be a reason that certain aspects reflect our world (as a parody on one level or a social critique on another level) and the way an alternate world comes to be has to emerge through a complex history of its own. In this case, I take into account not only critical theory on cultural and historical development - in particular Braudell's concept of "longue duree," Victor Turner's detailed studies of cultural symbolism, Saussurean-based Structuralism, Post-Structuralism, and so on. And of course, I also spend quite a lot of time looking at Korean, Japanese, and Chinese (and occasionally Vietnamese, Thai, and Indian) history, folklore, mythology, religious studies, and classical philosophy.

[That being said, part of the reason that my mod perpetually remains in limbo is because its weird dependency on my academic interests. ]

2. I'd say my biggest lack is just my total absence of any background in technology-related training and a continued difficulty in "getting" current cultural trends. It's 2014 yet everything about the 21st century still seems like a total novelty to me. I definitely don't have genuine know-how in the latest graphics and programming technology nor am I much schooled in the theory and practice behind gaming as well as the dizzying rate of change in the "popular" culture scene (obviously, what excites me is definitely not going to excite a lot of other people ).

 

[Jerry'sGoldfish]

A labyrinthine man never seeks the truth, but only his Ariadne - Nietzsche - if i would start any comentary on the subject,if i am allowed to be consiered a creator, maybe not here..., well i am creating other worlds, but i keep them for myself, enough said, i would say that there is this ariadne which dictates the rules, and if the one decided to follow her, is seeing the real life world through this keyhole, than you are exploiting the given oportunities to a maximum and given the special approach on the game. the brought in information will surely follow you personality, your concept of real life and experience/knowledge, because life is short and you have to bring a information from somewhere, so instead of learning what are cumans, or georgians, or tibetans, you will follow your real life hobbies of seeing sci-fi movies, dedicating principally yourself to parallels of your reallife studies. if the life would have been longer i assume that the variations between different creators would be smaller, i mean that each creator would be tempted to evolve sistemic rather than radial. and one can see beginings of this way of thinking by comparing the creation of differeant artist here, each of them bringing their own view on units, fashion, impressions, and so on. why sistemic? because there is also a social factor about each one of us, and this community brings this hidden part to life - so everybody wants to be appreciated somehow. i like contests, but i believe that anyone could a get a prize for his creation, what should i choose - an elephant, a robofighter or a helicopter, and the wonderfull about this thought is that the products are not concuring for the same prize actually, but they patch the view towards a complete world. again, a community of short lived beeings would bring to life a sistemic world, composed of neither egual creators each specialised in something, yes such a world could be possible, a world where parts could join in to form utopia.

 

[Greizer85]

A labyrinthine man never seeks the truth, but only his Ariadne - Nietzsche - if i would start any comentary on the subject,if i am allowed to be consiered a creator, maybe not here..., well i am creating other worlds, but i keep them for myself, enough said, i would say that there is this ariadne which dictates the rules, and if the one decided to follow her, is seeing the real life world through this keyhole, than you are exploiting the given oportunities to a maximum and given the special approach on the game. the brought in information will surely follow you personality, your concept of real life and experience/knowledge, because life is short and you have to bring a information from somewhere, so instead of learning what are cumans, or georgians, or tibetans, you will follow your real life hobbies of seeing sci-fi movies, dedicating principally yourself to parallels of your reallife studies. if the life would have been longer i assume that the variations between different creators would be smaller, i mean that each creator would be tempted to evolve sistemic rather than radial. and one can see beginings of this way of thinking by comparing the creation of differeant artist here, each of them bringing their own view on units, fashion, impressions, and so on. why sistemic? because there is also a social factor about each one of us, and this community brings this hidden part to life - so everybody wants to be appreciated somehow. i like contests, but i believe that anyone could a get a prize for his creation, what should i choose - an elephant, a robofighter or a helicopter, and the wonderfull about this thought is that the products are not concuring for the same prize actually, but they patch the view towards a complete world. again, a community of short lived beeings would bring to life a sistemic world, composed of neither egual creators each specialised in something, yes such a world could be possible, a world where parts could join in to form utopia.

So you're saying we're all labyrinthine, or the world is, and we must each pick a path on account of the limited time we have? There is a truth to this, but some are also more lazy than others. There is more and more information in the world with each passing second; it is daunting for apes such as us to consider, let alone absorb it all. In a way I envy those who lived in the Stone Age, when all the knowledge in the world could be obtained (at least to a superficial degree) by anyone industrious enough. (Of course most people back then were busy enough just trying to survive, but the point is it was *possible*.)

I'd say that collaboration in the real world is hindered by communications and the profit motive. The latter is also a catalyst for it, though; it is likely a stronger effect, given our nature. On the very grand scale, over time, it would benefit us to be more noble in this regard, imo. (If I had a million dollars, I could happily give away my other millions, so that others could use them to make more stuff than I could ever have made by myself. I'm sure my mind would shift if I actually got that million, though. ) The communications issue -- as sites like this demonstrate -- is largely a moot point in the digital age. I would welcome collaborators on my Finland mod project, and may try to gather them once I get the mod more fleshed out (my ToT disc just arrived after 2 weeks of agonizing waiting -- can't wait for those ubiquitous automated delivery copters! ). And ofc with Civ (and especially Civ II) the only motives are a modest form of prestige and the desire to make the game better or give it variation. And just the desire to *create*, one of the better human impulses. ... Ah -- one more hindering factor: creative control. With hobby projects like this it's less of an issue though -- unlike e.g. writing a novel, playing Civ is a less personal experience almost by definition.

I'm not sure we're allowed loose discussions in this thread... It is related to the subject, but I suppose you may want to keep it more orderly and just have people answer the two questions. I will refrain from further ramblings if this is the case.

 

[Rob (R8XFT)]

Moderator Action: Please let's stick to answering Blue Monkey's queries. I don't want this to become an "Off Topic" thread.
Please read the forum rules: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=422889

 

[Blue Monkey]

Thank you, Rob. While there's certainly a lot worth discussing, and I'd enjoy reading it, the thread does have a definite purpose. I could have constructed a formal survey with a 5-point Likert scale, but the topic is more open-ended and I want everyone to have the freedom to say what knowledge & skills are important to them in their own world building. Which means I must read and reread every post to make sure I've winnowed out all the info. OT posts make that more difficult.

That said, all of you have provided very worthy & detailed responses that I'm happy to have.

 

[Jerry'sGoldfish]

one more thing to say and than i have finished!! these old games are part of our education and somehow also view of the world, that is why we, all that are present here after so much time enjoy and contribute to the developpment of such games. also i forgot to say that i am pretty good in photoshop and have some basics skills about game design, all hard worked skills achieved in time.
sorry for the digression...best, jerry

 

[Kyriakos]

1. What subjects have you studied in the past or are studying now that help you in creating the worlds/scenarios you are interested in?

2. What subjects do you feel you don't know enough about that would make creating the kind of worlds/scenarios you are interested in easier or more rewarding?
​

Ok, my answers:

1. World creation (primarily in literature for me, but also in gfx) is based on self-reflection, examination of relations between points of focus in an image or a passage of narration. In gfx the focus for me is always on form (shape of the graphic, dynamics mostly internal in it and less to the overall environment it will be placed). For gfx i almost always used historically accurate images of the models i would make. For literary world creation i use the concept of a labyrinth and the angle in which the narrator observes it, leading directly to his position in the labyrinth and the prospects there. In essense there is no end to the actual environment, cause it is a mental realm.

2. More than just a decent knowledge of geometry (more obviously for 3d gfx, but i use this both consciously and crucially unconsciously in my literature too by now). Symmetries and planes of symmetry are the most important tools one has (consciously) so as to create an interesting environment. Nietzsche had claimed that "art is more real than life", by which i think he mostly meant that in art one can present a more clearly constructed totality of a world, where more particular relations can be studied, a bit like if during an experiment in a laboratory.

 

[timerover51]

1. What subjects have you studied in the past or are studying now that help you in creating the worlds/scenarios you are interested in?

2. What subjects do you feel you don't know enough about that would make creating the kind of worlds/scenarios you are interested in easier or more rewarding?
​

These may be subjects you studied in school or learned more informally. You are welcome to include things like knowledge of scripting/programming languages or 3D modeling. But I am more interested in learning what you consider helpful to designing the world/scenario itself rather than the game mechanics.


A simple list of subjects important to you as a world/scenario creator is what I'm looking for. You are welcome to post any additional comments appropriate to the survey topic. Questions about the survey or overall project are welcome as well.

Currently, I am working on developing a world for a science-fiction novel that I am writing, with the postulate being that the world was seeded about 300,000 years ago with the flora and fauna of Pleistocene North America. I am also working up a play-by-post campaign for the Space: 1889 Roleplaying Game.

1. The subjects that I am studying for the novel are what was the eco-system of North America like about 300,00 years ago. what creatures were present that live today and what creatures were present that have become extinct,, and what sort of climate needs to be constructed to support that eco-system on a stable basis for 300,000 years. That includes predator-prey relationships, likely vegetation patterns, and also what the landforms should approximately look like, in order to resemble the state of North America during that Ice Age period. For the Space: 1889 campaign it in primarily reviewing my knowledge of the history of the period and also looking at what technological developments were taking place at the time or could be reasonably projected to be capable of taking place. Basically, much of this I have been learning on my own, although I do have a strong background in history and technology.

2. Not sure that I can say that there are any areas where I do not know enough, except possibly determining the solar insolation of Mars, which information that I have but just need to remember where I put the book. I have compiled a good library of reference sources covering ecology and plant life, and I have been going through Project Gutenberg for the technological details. Just a matter of asking the right question and then finding the answer.

 

[Vuldacon]

1. What subjects have you studied in the past or are studying now that help you in creating the worlds/scenarios you are interested in?

Art, Science, Technology, Graphics Design, Anatomy, Physiology, Chemistry, Physics, Botany, Biology, Psychology, Sociology, History, Geology, Geography, Literature, Nature, Culture, Human Motivation.
... Basically Reality vs Plausible Reality

2. What subjects do you feel you don't know enough about that would make creating the kind of worlds/scenarios you are interested in easier or more rewarding?

It would be more rewarding to be able to Read, Write and Speak the plethora of different languages in the world to directly gain more knowledge for a better understanding of other realities to enhance creativity, communication and expression.

 

[Blue Monkey]

All of the responses so far are exactly the sort of thing I'm looking for. The succinct lists are still thorough and - more importantly - thoughtful. The more philosophical statements still include practical answers and provide insight into the creative process of making worlds that will be helpful in the long run. I look forward to more people's contributions, hopefully including some who work with other versions of civ.

 

[timerover51]

Greetings, Blue Monkey. I edited my comments as I realized that the proper term is "solar insolation" for the amount of sunlight reaching a specified planet. Sorry about that.

 

[Ozymandias]

1. What subjects have you studied in the past or are studying now that help you in creating the worlds/scenarios you are interested in?

At university, history with an unofficial specialty in the transition from feudal to early "modern" capitalist socio-economic systems in Western Europe. Primary methodology was Marxist historiography - i.e., the ways in which technological change drives social change (aka the Tech Tree )

Plus the usual early-onward (through my 30s) fascination with military history and technology in general. At 14 I was playtesting paper-and-cardboard games for ye olde SPI; the application of the many different structures of game design and theory nicely meshed in with the later university studies.

Plate tectonics (i.e., the "realistic" design of imaginary worlds) is something I'd very much like to incorporate, but so it goes.

Current acute attention to the structure of the pre-existing / now existing / evolving American socio-economic-political institutions and structures led to my designing a "Corporate Republic" gov type for Civ3. Along the gov-type-lines, actual knowledge of how various "archaic" "government" types has led to conniptions for adequately "defining" National Socialism, Authoritarianism (e.g., Banana Republic,) "pure" (i.e., imaginary) Marxism; Leninism / Stalinism / Maoism ... and my current favorite challenge, Kleptocracy (BTW, all this includes my best attempts to give the AI "even" chances of choosing based upon known AI-choice-weighting factors.)

2. What subjects do you feel you don't know enough about that would make creating the kind of worlds/scenarios you are interested in easier or more rewarding?

1. Non-European / European-derived militaries.
2. The depth of naval warfare timerover51 possesses.
3. A succinct timeline source combining both general technological and specific military advances.
4. Ratios of civilian workers : military personnel under different, historical circumstances.
5. An English-language word to rhyme with, "orange."

-z

 

[timerover51]

At university, history with an unofficial specialty in the transition from feudal to early "modern" capitalist socio-economic systems in Western Europe. Primary methodology was Marxist historiography - i.e., the ways in which technological change drives social change (aka the Tech Tree )

Plus the usual early-onward (through my 30s) fascination with military history and technology in general. At 14 I was playtesting paper-and-cardboard games for ye olde SPI; the application of the many different structures of game design and theory nicely meshed in with the later university studies.

Plate tectonics (i.e., the "realistic" design of imaginary worlds) is something I'd very much like to incorporate, but so it goes.

Current acute attention to the structure of the pre-existing / now existing / evolving American socio-economic-political institutions and structures led to my designing a "Corporate Republic" gov type for Civ3. Along the gov-type-lines, actual knowledge of how various "archaic" "government" types has led to conniptions for adequately "defining" National Socialism, Authoritarianism (e.g., Banana Republic,) "pure" (i.e., imaginary) Marxism; Leninism / Stalinism / Maoism ... and my current favorite challenge, Kleptocracy (BTW, all this includes my best attempts to give the AI "even" chances of choosing based upon known AI-choice-weighting factors.)

1. Non-European / European-derived militaries.
   [*]The depth of naval warfare timerover51 possesses.
2. A succinct timeline source combining both general technological and specific military advances.
3. Ratios of civilian workers : military personnel under different, historical circumstances.
4. An English-language word to rhyme with, "orange."

-z

Thank you for your kind words, Oz. As for the word rhyming with "orange", there is no such thing. Mankind has been searching for that for well over a century.

Also, Blue Monkey and Moderators, is in permissible to jump in here with some comments on Oz's requests for more information, or should that go in another thread?

 

[Blue Monkey]

People are welcome to comment here on the survey itself (including other people's posts). But specifics of naval warfare is off-topic here and that conversation would be better served in another thread.

By the way , timerover51 (& everyone else as well) - feel free to edit your posts. I won't be starting the collation & analysis for a while, so changes won't trip me up.

 

[Gojira54]

To borrow a trick from an old friend of mine,



I've been meaning to respond to this since you first posted, and will once time has been uncovered...