Inmortal OCC harsh times.

[Sadato]

Hi everyone,

I only play OCC games, I enjoy the minimalism and perfection involved around it, and the fact that you can start and finish a game in a day (at least with Civ4, turns go slower in Civ 5). I think I mastered this art with Civ 4, studying build orders and research beelines. Finally I was used to play OCC Deity games (usually small map, 4 IA, continents), I won often and It was certainly fun and a challenge.

I write this post because I'm having serious problems with my Civ5 OCC games (pangea, standard size 8 IAs, normal speed, Inmortal).
I started my first game with King, I managed to complete the wonders I wanted and was outpacing IA research so I restarted.
With Emperor things were also fine.

I play Egypt and always open with Tradition SP. My usual start tech path is mining -> pottery -> writing -> archery (if marble is around I go for masonry before). My build order is worker, chop 2nd worker (1 forest around the city is enough) -> monument -> great library. I buy archers with each 200g achieved.
My workers build farms to be able to be a size 4/5 city when focusing production for the first wonder.
I have tried monument->worker->granary, worker->monument-> granary and all variants you can imagine, still learning the best start and if I should go for GL or HG, Work in progress XD
So normally I'm able to finish GL around turn 30-40 depending on huts/marble/forests presence around then go for filosofy, college, beeline to HG and start to research at a fast pace. At least at inmortal I have no problem with IA finishing it before me.
It is a weak start military and at emperor I was used to receive an attack from a neighbour around turn 40-45, but nothing I couldn't manage with 2 archers and 1 warrior. Once I had 4 chariots and I had killed 4 or 5 enemy units, the IA agreed to sign white peace and I could continue the game.

As everybody in the forum says they play Deity I though I was ready to jump to it, but due to the fact that Civ5 benefits city-spamming I though that playing OCC at Civ5 was truly a disadvantatge so I tried Inmortal first.

And guess what? Everything went horrible.

What happens on Inmortal is the following:

Everything as usual until turn 25-30 when I always receive a neighbour attack with around 2 archers and 4 warriors against my sole garrison warrior, and in the following turns more enemy units keep coming. I manage to survive but the price is too high to be able to compete the rest of the game. My build order stops to produce military non-stop for the following 30 turns, workers have to run away so development halts, and I have many important tiles occuped by enemy for a long time.
Sometimes I even receive a declaration of war from 2 neighbours at a time. And they never accept peace unless some occasional offer asking for all my gold, goods and a tribute for 30 turns. It seems that IA diplomacy at Inmortal is totally crazy.

People here defend a 2 scouts start for deity, and in a normal game I would agree because you really need knowledge of your surroundings, neighbours, CS and where is everyone expanding so you can plan your expansion. At OCC you really don't care at all about your surroundings. It's ok if you can pop a hut or two and those 15/30 g for each CS are welcome, but until archery there is nothing really worth buying so you can wait many turns to get that gold. However, in a OCC game 12 turn delay in your first worker is extremely costly beacause it means a 12 turn delay in the wonders race, in improving key resources, in farm spamming, so at the end a 12 turn delay in your tech production so in the inmediate future you could be out-teched military because of that.

Should I lower difficulty?
Should I start with archery and build a couple archers to keep the IA controlled?
Should I restart if Romans/Aztechs/Mongols/France/Greek are near? (There are really too much warmongers to even think about it).
Should I avoid completely ancient wonders and focus on military spamming?

The main issue is that I think that in an OCC game, without some key wonders and an exponential grow start you really can't compete with only one city .

All your ideas are really welcome.

 

[Le Roi Soleil]

You must, must, must build a scout first on immortal. I don't care that you're playing OCC, that scout will pay you back in huts many times over and a single scout has a good chance of becoming a super archer, as well. Add one more archer to that (which you can just buy as needed because as you say, money is little matter in OCC) plus your initial warrior, and you should be good for quite a while. There is actually a pretty good argument for starting with two scouts even on OCC, but it's not a sure thing. The first scout, though...no doubt. If you don't want to start with a scout, turn off ruins. Otherwise, you are handing the AI an enormous advantage.

 

[Barth]

I'm far from an expert, but I might have some advice that could be useful. First is that it's efficient to buy military units with gold. Instead of building archers, wait until you actually need them then buy them for 200g each. Your city with an archer garrisoned inside and possible another hiding behind the city will stop pretty much any early game rush, and allow your city to focus on buildings.

I don't have any experience with an OCC (though usually I only end up settling 1 extra city anyway ) but especially on a Pangea map I've never regretted building 2 scouts. With just a warrior you'll grab 2-3 ruins. With your starting warrior and 2 scouts getting 5-6 ruins is common and gives you that many more chances at getting a free tech or some gold or culture, or maybe a super archer (saving you 200g during that first DoW), all of which can really speed up your progress early in the game. And something I've read about and had some success trying recently is using them to capture a worker from a nearby CS. Then if you build or buy a second you've got all the workers you'll need very quickly and with less of your city's precious build time wasted.

I'm a lot less confident here but I also feel like you're focusing too much on early wonders. GL and HG are obviously both good, but dedicating so much early production on them both is probably slowing down the rest of your infrastructure significantly. And I also feel like they don't complement each other well. GL is most useful that early in the game to grab something like Theology so you can go for HS quickly. Building the GL and then beelining for HG, which is along a cheap tech path, feels wasteful to me. Skip the GL and build your National College instead, it'll give you more science in the long run than the GL anyway.

 

[Noatz]

I don't know what victory you're intending to go for, but cultural would be the obvious choice.

Le Roi is correct in that scout first is more or less essential, and a good early progression path is something like:

Scout > Monument > Worker > Stonehenge/GL

Teching is largely dependent on what luxes and terrain you have nearby. Calender luxes are the most common so if Stonehenge is your goal and you have one you want to time Calender to finish as close to your worker popping as possible. If you have forests then pick up mining to chop in order to speed your first wonder. You will also want Writing soon after this for trades and the library.

During this your scout should be exploring as much as possible, popping dem ruins and trying not to get squished by barbs. Try and meet all the civs and CS's on your landmass. Sell your luxes as you connect them to friendly civs for 240 gold and open borders for 50g. Use this gold to either ally a cultural CS IF you are confident in your defences, or to rushbuy units for the first DoW.

On Deity its very hit & miss as to whether you will get any early wonders, but on Immortal you should get the wonder you want if you go after it promptly. Just make sure you only focus on the wonders integral to your victory.

 

[Sadato]

Ok, I will try with a scout/monument opening and avoid being a wonderwhore for the first 40 turns.

I really wasn't planning a victory condition that early as in ooc it is much a mid/late game decision because you end having all buildings and most of wonders. In Civ4 you could really decide going Spaceship, UN or conquest depending on the presence of aluminium or oil and my relations with AIs. I guess culture victory Is always an obvious choice in OCC because of the low price of SP and the concentration of wonders, but I don't have that much experience yet to plan it in advance.

I appreciate your advice, although you didn't answered my main main concern
Will the presence of that first scout and avoid going for an early wonder stop the AI from attacking with 6 units at turn 30?

 

[Noatz]

No, the AI will pretty much always DoW you for being close to them, especially because you won't have much of an army (and the amount of units you need to discourage them DoWing is unrealistic to obtain). An archer or two is all you'll need however to beat off their clumsy rushes.

The real problem comes when 2 or more AI's dogpile you. Then the sheer numbers can become a problem. In these cases defensive buildings and the Oligarchy SP are your best friends.

 

[Rpger29]

Yeah if you get dogpiled you can hide two archers behind the city and garrison a scout (assuming you have oligarchy). The city attack will usually soften up early units enough for two archers to finish them in one turn.

They're right about the DoW in general too. I've not had an immortal game yet that I wasn't DoWed very early. I actually have started to prefer this, as it is often diplomatically or economically profitable (eventually). I worry when I find someone like Germany or the Iroquois as a neighbor and I haven't been DoWed by turn 50.

 

[RedRover57]

There is a lot of luck involved in winning an OCC at high difficulties. So if you don't want luck to be so much of a factor then you would need to decrease the difficulty. The biggest factor is location. If you are unlucky and don't have a good starting location you may as well pack it in early. You need a semi-isolated and defensible spot so you don't get dogpiled early. You also need tiles that can generate growth (e.g., river farms, cattle, wheat, fish), production (forests, hills) and gold (river tiles and luxuries/strategic resources) all in one city. Gold is hugely important as you will need to fund as many RA's, as well as ally with as many CS as possible. Diplomacy is also very important as you need to keep the aggressive runaway civs from nuking you to dust.

If you haven't watched it already I highly recommend MadDjinn's Korea OCC series on youtube. This will show you how much of a combination of luck and player skill is needed at Deity level. Much of this would still be applicable to Immortal level.

 

[qalsip1977]

I am getting pretty good with Egypt in deity OCC games so I'll do what I can to help.

My research order is generally beeline writing (even if marble is nearby) to get the GL started as early as possible. Since I use a hybrid tradition/liberty approach for the free worker from citizenship I don't build a worker. Scout > Monument > Granary > GL is my usual build order early. As mentioned previously that opening scout is crucial. There's a good chance if you're searching for goodie huts with both your starting warrior and that scout that you'll get archery or mining in a hut. Once writing is finished (if you have marble) go Mining > Masonry (if you do this you will likely bulb Philosophy instead of Theology with GL). If not then go Calendar > Philosophy (so you can bulb Theology). On your social policies I generally go Tradition opener, Liberty opener, then Aristocracy (you obviously don't need it until you start building the GL so let's get another +1 CPT from Liberty). Then grab Citizenship next so you can get a worker going for production tiles. By the time your next SP is ready you should be able to use Legalism for your temple. Once Theology is done you'll probably want to focus on Piety for a while.

As was previously stated, military isn't going to do much for you in Immortal or Deity levels, so don't bother blowing 200g on a single archer early in the game. In CiV one of the keys to a high difficulty OCC win is smart diplomacy. You'll want to bribe the AI to war one another (rather than you). That's going to be key to your survival. Sell excess luxuries to keep your cashflow up (for RAs and cultural CS allies).

Some folks skip the GL on deity because the AI will have it built around turn 40-45 (I've seen it built as low as 30 if the AI is Egypt) but I've beat the AI to it plenty. The other school of thought says go straight for Stonehenge and then the Oracle. I like slingshotting past Theology myself so I can get my Piety policies rolling as early as possible. I'm not a number cruncher (it's a game, if I have to do math to play it then I'll stop playing lol) so I don't know what the more "efficient" path is mathematically. So it's either GL > Oracle or SH > Oracle, depending on your preference, and then beeline accoustics for SC.

Just keep those AIs fighting each other! Good luck!

 

[Sadato]

I really like the idea of paying them to fight each other, but I have 2 fears:
a) you can't really control if they sign peace and start looking at your indefense women.
b) without a worker start you don't have luxuries to sell and will be difficult to have enough gold to start that war (maybe with a scout start you can...)

In the other hand, Can you pay for the liberty opener and the worker sp and be on time to buy aristocracy for that first wonder?

I agree that start location and neighbours are really decisive at this levels, so luck plays a huge factor. Maybe emperor is more enjoyable, although I guess It should be played with a mediocre Civ to make it challenging.

Many thanks for your posts!

 

[qalsip1977]

I really like the idea of paying them to fight each other, but I have 2 fears:
a) you can't really control if they sign peace and start looking at your indefense women.
b) without a worker start you don't have luxuries to sell and will be difficult to have enough gold to start that war (maybe with a scout start you can...)

With the gold you'll get from meeting CS's, goodie huts, etc. with your scout you'll be fine for cash. You won't need to worry about getting DoW for at least the first 30 turns (on deity) and maybe more on immortal so you should be close to mining and/or calendar by then and can get your luxes rolling. It usually works just fine for me (even at deity). That being said, if you find your starting location to be wedged in between some aggressive AI's, you might consider rerolling!

In the other hand, Can you pay for the liberty opener and the worker sp and be on time to buy aristocracy for that first wonder?

You won't actually take citizenship until AFTER aristocracy. So you'll be right on time for your first wonder.