Innovation challenge

Discussion in 'Civ4 - Strategy & Tips' started by futurehermit, Apr 14, 2009.

  1. futurehermit

    futurehermit Deity

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    Everything I've learned about Civ4 I owe to these strategy boards and this community. I now feel very confident in all phases of the game and feel like I've learned so much of this very deep and complex game.

    My question now is: Has it all been done? Have we tapped everything this game has to offer? Or might there be some lingering strategies, techniques, and so forth that we might still bring to light?

    Let's see if we can put our minds together to come up with something new. Feel free to post ideas, screenshots, or walkthroughs and whatnot if you think you have something creative to share. Feel free to post anything from a tidbit to a full-fledged strategy. Leader-specific, trait-specific, opening-specific, or more general.

    Basically, I'm just interested to see if we can come up with anything new, something that hasn't really been discussed much or, preferably, at all on these forums. Any wonders you never build? Maybe we can think of a new/interesting way to use it. Tech paths you never go up? Let's go up them and see what we can do with them.

    Feel free to post any ideas you have.
     
  2. Dirk1302

    Dirk1302 Deity

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    Take a philosophical leader, Bull comes to mind for the strong archers. tech to writing growing the capital, now set slider to 0% accumulating gold. Capital whips library and immed assigns 2 scientists. Prechop and road forests. Once the GS pops bulb math and research fast to construction. With good starts it's possible to get construction before 1000 BC. I tried it on immortal a few times with different starts/different leaders. I felt the results were below par although i was able to erase one civ most of the time. Problem is to get to construction so soon you give up your own rex (amongst other things) so conquering one other civ isn't that much of a gain. Still i could often get winnable positions with it.

    Now if you have phants there might be more to say for this strat as you can probably erase more than one civ now, your opportunity window gets that much bigger.

    But bottom line, cat is a steamroll weapon not a blitz weapon.I'm sure i'd have had better results in those tries just developing my own empire more, then come with a cat force. Might face longbows then but at least i have an empire myself.
     
  3. Krill

    Krill Deity

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    Rush another civ and try to oracle construction? It's effectively the same as you posted (especially if you go to writing first, and assign the scientists while researching the rel techs).

    That's been done though, or at the very least suggested by TMIT.

    The No Melee variant? try to win with no melee at all? Most difficult when paired with the no siege variant as well.
     
  4. Dirk1302

    Dirk1302 Deity

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    Not quite:

    1. no certainty you'll win oracle race. Especially not if you have to self research math.
    2. You lose hammers from building the oracle. these were meant to go into the rush.
     
  5. Krill

    Krill Deity

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    Not completely disagreeing with you, you're right that there is a difference, but depending on the difficulty and the amount of AI nearby trying to oracle Construction might be better than trying to research it. The amount of hammers lost may be negligable when compared to the amount of beakers required to research construction, especially when taking into account the ease of "choking" an AI.
     
  6. Phil725

    Phil725 Warlord

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    It isn't quite nonexistent on these forums, but I feel the horse archer rush is very under valued. IMO only cannons have more devastation potential, and HAs may even top them as far as possible land claimed (although probably only for an org leader, that maintenance can get nasty early on.)

    Under above average conditions (trees to chop, maybe a gold or gem mine in 1 of first two cities, nothing unreasonable,) I've had 7-8 HAs ready to hit declare war ~1500BC. No AI in the game is stopping 7 HAs at 1500BC, not even Shaka and Pacal with their UUs.

    The thing that sets them apart from axes though is that they're so fast. You can easily take out your first AI by 800BC even in below average conditions. Now you should have 9-10 HAs (no more than 2 should die unless your really unlucky or going against a pro civ,) and most of them should be nearing 10exp. The AI will still be defending with 2 archers per city now unless they have a high unitprob. The scattered axe and spear are no problem once you have some combat1/2/shock HAs. It should be another easy war.

    It's doubtful that you could afford to take a third capital, but I have done it a few times on emperor, and I'm definitely not great at microing early war.

    The only thing that may stop you is a 60% defense capital on a hill with 2 or more melee units along with archers, but then again, that stops pretty much everything.

    I just don't see a down side to this strategy either. If you blast an AI and take 5 or 6 cities, leaving them with 1, they'll give you pretty much every tech that they have for peace. You can get alphabet for HBR with a few turns of research pretty easily, which is essential to extorting techs obviously. HBR is no aesthetics or philosophy, but it still trades a lot better than IW or math.

    HAs are my favorite unit in this game, so I would personally just like them to get some more love. Everyone knows what you can do with keshiks, just try it with normal HAs every once in a while.

    Disclaimer: I play emperor/epic the majority of the time. Obviously any military unit is less effective at normal speed, but I can still see them being very good. Mounted units fare better than 1 move units on normal in my experience. I have no experience with immortal, but I'm sure a better player could easily replicate any result I could get at emperor.
     
  7. Rusten

    Rusten Deity

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    I agree that horse archers are very underrated. I did it on deity/normal recently--it's not an emperor/epic thing.

    Did a very quick write-up on it here ->
    http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=7954708&postcount=8
    http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=7958706&postcount=24

    It's a couple of centuries later, but that's to be expected with no gems/major luxury resource, normal speed, and deity tech costs and opposition.

    Another fun army combo is airships (or other air)+cavalry. You don't need to wait for slow siege enabling you to run over your opponents quickly. Airships are very cost-effective as you can use them over and over again and while they don't take out cultural defense they usually injure the defenders enough for the cavalry to take the cities with very few or no losses (flanking can help).
     
  8. TheMeInTeam

    TheMeInTeam Top Logic

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    My 2nd monarch win ever was a forum game by Cam_H where I used nothing but horse archers, knights, and at the very end cavalry to take over an entire map on normal speed :p. No siege, and no spies (the game was intended to be an espionage game, but I was a noob and didn't notice, and just SPAMMED the crap out of HA's and killed 3 civs with them alone). As Rusten shows (and BurN will tell you), it can be done on deity with good micro. I lack good micro, so it only works on immortal for me.
     
  9. tycoonist

    tycoonist Deity

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    this is the kinda reason why i stopped playing. it got to the stage where i was adaptable enough to win 95% on immortal, and i just didn't have the motivation to go up against all of those AI bonuses on deity.
     
  10. budweiser

    budweiser King of the Beers

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    I dont think the game's potential is tapped. It wont be until the player base masters diety. That's where the challenge lies and where there is still room for innovation.

    This forum, i.e. the player base is wedded to REX, Lib race cottages, etc, etc. It's all you read about and they are really all just gambits.
     
  11. Gooblah

    Gooblah Heh...

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    I dunno.
    Spearman rush? I think that would be interesting to witness. I tried it against Willem in my very first BTS game, playing as Charlie. You need 1.5x units, though, which sucks.
    Maybe trying some of Attacko's strategies might work, who knows?

    I mean, I think that all the strats that are virtually guaranteed to work, regardless of situation, have been voiced...that's why so many players use them to such great effect. Even the 'lesser-known' strats such as Warrior, Knight, or HA assaults have been shown numerous times.
     
  12. futurehermit

    futurehermit Deity

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    One thing I was thinking about was a CE->EE transition early renaissance. Basically, the game would go like this:

    1) Expand to 8-15 cities peacefully or by force

    2) Run standard CE to tech/pay maintenance

    3) Limit the number of gp produced

    4) Prioritize Democracy, (1st to) Communism, and a strong/mobile military unit (Cavalry comes to mind)

    5) Build/rush buy Kremlin in NE city. Also in NE city get all spy-slot buildings built. Then run max spies in gpfarm to start cranking out GSpies. Use GSpies in commerce cities for scotland yards.

    6) Prioritize all espionage buildings in commerce cities (instead of usual universities, observatories, etc.)

    7) Swap civics to US, Nationhood (or FS), Emancipation, SP, one of: pac (for GSpies), theo (for military), or FR (for diplo)

    8) Prebuild mass spies

    9) Once hit mobile military unit tech, turn off research and crank up espionage slider

    10) From this point on steal techs as needed in order to war. Else, use spies to drop defenses, destory iron/oil deposits, and otherwise do what is necessary to eliminate opponents.

    With that much espionage, spies, and a mobile military unit, it should be reasonably easy to blitz through opponents in a short amount of time.

    Of course this is just a variation on endgame strategy (i.e., a way to close out a game), although it may be more effective at higher skill levels (emp+???).
     
  13. UWHabs

    UWHabs Deity

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    Spearman rush wouldn't be very strong, since if you can build spear, you can build axes. Holkan rush has been done, though.

    Sometime it'd be interesting to see how the "Monty attack" strategy could work. Maybe avoid Civil Service and rifling, and try to take out someone in the rifling or infantry era with an absolute mass of axemen, swordsmen, and catapults?
     
  14. Yeosol

    Yeosol monarch

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    I would say there are probably a lot of ideas we haven't come up with. (love the idea of this thread).

    The most dominant game I ever played I used an extreme GA stratagy. Basically I got the MoM, then saved 3 GPeople. I then used them to start 2 Golden Ages 1 turn before I completed the Taj. This launched a 45 Turn GA (Epic speed). I was playing as Nappy. By using the 45 turn GA production combined with a super draft city using globe theater I ran through 2 AI's in about 30 turns. My power rating was almost vertical on the chart. It was so gamebreaking I couldn't believe it.

    For me 45 turns is like 10% of the game!
     
  15. StuntedAzrael

    StuntedAzrael Warlord

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    My favourite strategy is a peaceful REX and trying to catch up after that with a lot of my cities. I tought that I knew every strategy involving fast rex and recovery but recently I learned from here few very good strategies that I didn't think of before:

    - Slider to 0% research after writing and worker techs. I have for years REXed using my science slider as benchmark of how well I'm doing and I always tried to keep it as high as possible, clinging to every beaker that I could get my hands on. I was wrong. Putting slider on 0% allows you to accumulate gold which is never wasted and can later be transferred to beakers. The beauty of this strategy is to build libraries and get a fast GS for settling in capital. Then switch capital to commerce only. If you crank your slider up to 100% science you're starting to convert gold via deficit spending to beakers at the +75% rate and that is commerce accumulated a lot earlier in game.

    - Building research after alphabet. During REX-ing I have found that cottages only do so much to combat maintenance especially if the map is river poor. Secondly I always try to build 2-3 production cities first to produce units, workers, settlers and libraries (to have specialists while the slider is at 0%). So I'm having 4-5 cities including capital with great production capability. It can be very good strategy to switch all production cities to build research and focus that on a tech with great trading opportunity like metal casting. While it's true that hammer to beaker rate isn't that great you have to consider opportunity cost. Getting MC earlier gives you forges and for me usually Math, Iron working, Monarchy and perhaps CoL. This could not be possible by waiting for cottages to mature.
     
  16. Iberian

    Iberian Prince

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    Just FYI and I don't mean this to be mean but one caveat in Rusten's game was the Diety AI did not have the normal start bonuses. This makes it look easier in his game then it would typically be.

    I really like the HA rush and it works well. Too well as mentioned and you run into cash flow problems.

    Again just FYI if anyone reads this and thinks they will be able to walk over Diety AI using HA's as easy as Rusten did. Though for most the biggest difference will be the skill level of Rusten compared to their own, not the AI's lack of full bonuses.
     
  17. Iberian

    Iberian Prince

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    On topic though, I think either we still have a ways to go or Civ IV is written a lot better than the preceding 3.

    For the best guess I would look back to Civ I and see how long new strats kept coming up. Then look at Civ II etc. Obviously Civ I was pretty easy to exploit but I am willing to bet there is more to learn in Civ IV.

    The big question is where. My guesses:
    1. EE. There are 100% bonuses here that outstrip 50% bonus to gold or science.
    2. Better start containment of AI. (Snaaty does this very well with aggressive city placement)


    Running games like "King of the Hill" and other challenges I think does a lot to promote the development of this game. Most of the time I don't take the time to actually try and do a good job. Typically I play Emp or Imm just because it isn't the struggle that playing Deity is. With a game like King of the Hill though I take it up as a challenge and not a game to play for fun and ironically I play better and have more fun. So as always competition is a good thing for innovation.
     
  18. TheMeInTeam

    TheMeInTeam Top Logic

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    If the AIs didn't follow stale tech paths other paths would be more viable to the human in SP.

    Don't overblow this...most of the deity advantages are there. The starting units are all there, including the archers/workers/settlers from turn 1. The only difference is starting techs other than archery...a couple hundred :science: tops (which is of course subject to the deity discount). Easier? Yeah...a little at MOST. Doubt it affects his game though.
     
  19. gskyes

    gskyes Warlord

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    I've been lurking and occasionally posting on these boards for a long time, from back when I played Civ3. Some of the most interesting and unique strategies came from the best players trying to beat the hardest difficulty. (I was definately not one of them) These advanced strategies used the AI behavior against itself. The AI in Civ4 is much better, but my point is that any more advances in strategy are more likely to be from exploits of AI code instead of types of rushes or beelines, ect.

    Note: I hate to use the word "exploit" as some players have bad feelings about that word, almost akin to cheating. I'm talking more about using an opponents disadvantage to your benefit rather than abusing a bug or poor AI. Definately a gray area here.
     
  20. Iberian

    Iberian Prince

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    True, it isn't going to be like Earth 18 easy.

    Out of curiosity anyone want to open the world builder and tell me what techs she would have had?
     

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