Innovation challenge

Discussion in 'Civ4 - Strategy & Tips' started by futurehermit, Apr 14, 2009.

  1. Hereditary Rule

    Hereditary Rule Warlord

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    Has anyone hosted a game/series that uses the advance start feature? I know I haven't even played one with it.

    It would seem if you remove the early game and have everyone start in the medieval age with several cities, you would drastically change the game for the human player, who basically wins by beating the crap out of the AI with good REXING, rushing, and builbing in the ancient and classical eras.

    It seems most games are won by building some kind of advantage in the ancient, classic, and medieval eras to reach the Renaissance first. What if there were no early eras?
     
  2. Ghpstage

    Ghpstage Deity

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    With advanced start the human advantage is far, far bigger in my experience, the AI just seems to get the wrong things.
     
  3. PieceOfMind

    PieceOfMind Drill IV Defender Retired Moderator

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    In most of my games now there are times where I'm trying to take full advantage of the promotions that can be retained through unit upgrades. For example, there's the classic "build a bunch of CR2 or CR3 macemen and mass upgrade them to riflemen".

    The best cases are when you can mass build units that start with free promotions. For example, building Oromo Warriors (who start with Drill 1 and 2 free) and then upgrading them to the later gunpowder units.

    • City Garrison Crossbowmen or Grenadiers --> Machine Gunners.
    • City Raider Maces or Swords --> Riflemen
    • Anti-Tank Units --> Mech Infantry. Anti-tanks start with the Ambush promotion and gain the March promotion on upgrade to Mech Infantry. For a laugh, build them in the Red Cross city so you have a nice collection of Ambush Medic I March Mech Infantry before any XP have been used for promos!
    • Oromo Warriors --> Riflemen, Infantry or Mech Infantry. This is by far the easiest way to get Drill IV at 5XP.
    • Amphibious or March promoted mounted units --> Gunships. By the way, if my memory serves me right, gunships do suffer a penalty for attacking across rivers so Amphibious is of use to them!

    To generalise all of this it would be best to look at the specific parts of the unit upgrade paths where unit types are converted. For example, CR promotions can be used by gunpowder units because CR is available to melee and there is a path from melee to gunpowder. Actually there are two paths - warriors, spears and pikes can be upgraded to grenadiers which can be upgraded to machine gunners which can be upgraded to mech infantry; the other path is warriors, swords, axes, maces upgrade to riflemen which upgrade to infantry or SAM infantry (and hence Mech Infantry or Mobile SAMs).

    IMO the best examples are those where you can spam the unit immediately before the upgrade option comes available. For example, you can spam out a bunch of grenadiers to give the CG promotions just before you get Railroad so you can mass upgrade them to Machine Guns. It works particularly well for Protective leaders because they can get the CG1 and D1 free on the grenadier but not on the machine gun because it's a siege unit. So if you play a Protective civ, take note and spam out 5XP grenadiers so you can upgrade them to CG3D1 Machine Guns!

    There are many UUs that give a free promotion and these can be used in such an upgrade strategy as described above. Jaguar warriors, numidian cavalry, beserkers, Gallic warriors, impi, oromo warriors, quecha, samurai are all the UUs that get a free promotion and can be upgraded to something else (I didn't include Navy SEALs because they are a dead end upgrade-wise).
    Really the samurai is barely worth mentioning in that list because the gunpowder units it can be upgraded to would get Drill 1 free anyway (unless you play Unrestricted Leaders and choose a non-Protective leader).

    By the way, if you ever accidentally upgrade a CR unit to a machine gun, not all is lost! You can later upgrade it to a mech infantry and use the CR promotion then. ;)

    Does anyone know some really effective upgrade paths?
     
  4. r_rolo1

    r_rolo1 King of myself

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    I like the situations where you can get a unit and upgrade it at the same time, especially when you can build a UU or a normal unit that has free promotions that would not be avaliable otherwise. Probably the best way to leverage that is to get Grenadiers or Rifles ( NOT both ) with the Vikings: this allows you to build Berserkers, upgrade them in the next turn ( maybe after promoting them via CR, if you want )... Result? Grens or rifles with amphibious promotion ;)
     
  5. Winston Hughes

    Winston Hughes Wrathful Warlock Retired Moderator

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    Early culture-bomb to block off land?

    I tried this ages ago on Monarch, and when it worked it was very effective. The problem was that it didn't work very often, and required you to play for it almost from the very start - not helpful. Although I never tried it above Monarch, I'd be surprised if it ever worked on Immortal or Deity.

    However, I did once use a fairly early culture bomb on Emperor, dropping it in a freshy-captured capital after popping a surprise Great Artist (courtesy of a newly-built wonder) mid-way through a catapult war. Since most of my victim's cities were poorly-placed, and since I couldn't afford that many cities anyway, the culture block was an easy way to stop other AIs from stealing the land until I was ready to resettle it myself.

    On the subject of highly situational strats, there's also the Privateer/Espionage Warless Slaughter Plan. This involves using Privs to blockade all workable water tiles, whilst Spies nip in to sabotage key land-based food resources, thus causing mass starvation in your victim's cities. The main drawback is that, even when an ideal opportunity arises, you're putting quite a lot into harming just one of your rivals, when that effort could be used making yourself stronger relative to all of them.
     
  6. oyzar

    oyzar Have quit civ/forums

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    There are a ton fastest possible / biggest possible way to win on different settings and victory conditions that have not been explored(read:hof). Too bad so many require you to crook the settings(or are just about crooking the settings) and reroll the map.

    In the SGoTMs i feel that pretty much every game bring forth some new and interesting strategies and tactics. If all had been tried those games would be a lot more similar than they are...

    Another thing that have been discussed very little on these forums is MP strategy. What do you do when your opponent doesn't actully let his siege weapons sit in his cities to rot but instead uses them against you together with whipping/drafting down his entire empire to counter you? How do you exploit the fact tha humans doesn't put tons of units in every single city they own? etc etc...
     
  7. ParadigmShifter

    ParadigmShifter Random Nonsense Generator

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    Upgraded melee for protective civs don't gain CG1 or drill I unfortunately so upgraded samurai are still ok-ish.
     
  8. futurehermit

    futurehermit Deity

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    My biggest regret with Civ4 is that multiplayer takes so darned long to play. I think that it would be a really, really amazing multiplayer game, if it didn't take so long to play. I came to Civ4 from playing rts games (mainly the AoE, AoM series). Those games took 10-20 min for an average game and up to 60 min for a really long game. So, you can easily sit down and play 1-3 games in one 60 min sitting. However, to try and get 1 Civ4 game done in one sitting--while still trying to capture the feel of the single player game (i.e., not using blazing, etc.) is pretty much impossible, especially if we're talking continents' style game. I do really think the multiplayer strategies would be far more complex and interesting.

    For example, in one of the few games I played online I noticed that instead of crossing a river to bombard and assault a city like I always do in single player, I was more leery of getting counter-attacked, so I stayed on the other side of the river on defensive terrain while bombarding. Taking advantage of defensive terrain is something I tend not to worry too much about in single player, but in multiplayer, the terrain would be much more of a factor imo. On that note, forts (which I 99.999% of the time don't build), would be much more useful in multiplayer, especially if you had chokepoints and so forth.
     
  9. Gooblah

    Gooblah Heh...

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    Pure defense/screw diplo game?

    Go for Worker techs and Mathematics. Turtle up, when someone DOWs, let them suicide their stack, then use Worker legions to clean up in one turn? Would be interesting (heheh...Snaaty's game got me thinking).
     
  10. futurehermit

    futurehermit Deity

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    Keep in mind this thread is not about 'for-fun' custom challenges, but rather about innovating new workable strategies, or at least variations on existing strategies.
     
  11. ParadigmShifter

    ParadigmShifter Random Nonsense Generator

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    I toyed with the idea of ignoring combustion and going for fission/radio for galleon/frigate/submarine amusement.
     
  12. Rusten

    Rusten Deity

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    I can assure you that I've done this many times in non-WB games with great success. The difference is not that big as TMIT pointed out. The main reason it worked great there was not due to it being a WB game, but rather that so much else was a great fit (super production capital, lots of forest, creative, none of Brennus' cities were on hills, far-away copper for Brennus, etc).
     
  13. Iberian

    Iberian Prince

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    That is a great point, more often than not the success of a strategy lies in the situation. Hence why so many HoF entries have such specific settings.
     
  14. bobbyboy29

    bobbyboy29 I was saying boo-urns...

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    Ok so here's my strategy, play as a civ with a draftable UU, ottomans, ethiopia or england will do. Normally if i play as one of these i beeline gunpowder or rifling, get nationalism and draft 20 to 30 of them with enough restraint to keep my cities from becoming too unhappy. what i would love to see is what would happen if i grew all my cities up to size twenty, set the gold slider to 100%, adopted nationalism and theocracy, then drafted all of them except for 2without restraint to size 5 building up such a large army i can conquer the world with ease. The 2 other cities would be the HE city to crank out siege and the WS city to keep the economy afloat (the GT city would also not have happiness issues). When i dominate militarily i like to keep a tech lead, but i would like to say once "screw techs, screw the happiness of my people i want to win as quickly as possible!" In twenty turns you could draft 80 units, crippling your own empire into mass unhapiness but giving you a big enough army to win the game. I'd like to see a nation full of 2 pop, unhappy cities conquer all others with their green drafted UU's.
     
  15. oyzar

    oyzar Have quit civ/forums

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    20-60 min is one turn in the late game in civ... With pitboss you get aproximatly one turn per day and as such some time like this per setting(in the early game it is less obviously).
     
  16. futurehermit

    futurehermit Deity

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    Yeah, exactly, that's why I find multiplayer much less appealing in Civ4. I couldn't imagine taking months to play a single game. I lose interest after 1-2 sittings usually :D
     
  17. madscientist

    madscientist RPC Supergenius

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    I wanted to post something here, but I could not really think of that much. Most has been discussed proposed already, at least somewhere.

    For myself, after the RPCs are done, I plan to start thinking about doing Modding which is where things can change I think. My first thing to do is alter traits and perhaps add 1 or 2.
     
  18. Yeosol

    Yeosol monarch

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    I'd like to see someone look at the power of the March promotion. Seems like it could be powerful for lighting campaigns.
    Three ways to get it. C1->C2->C3->M (10 exp for Agg leaders)
    C1->M1->M (5 exp for Agg leaders)
    Red cross->M1->M (3 exp)

    I've never really used them though.
     
  19. oyzar

    oyzar Have quit civ/forums

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    Don't you need to have movement left to take advantage of march? Seems like that is rather hard to do without 2 move units at least... Comando / guerilla(2) / woodman(2) seems more useful underused promos to me. Guerilla 3 also seems like it could be used a lot more. 50% withdrawl is nothing to scoff at.
     
  20. PieceOfMind

    PieceOfMind Drill IV Defender Retired Moderator

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    ?:confused:

    Usually units don't heal if they move at all during their turn (note healing occurs at the start of the following turn). March simply lets them heal on any turn, including turns where they moved. This is useful no matter how many movement points the unit has.
     

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