Innovia Embassy

[General_W]

Ugh. I’ve been dreading this day.

Well – I certainly DON’T think we should demand a tech to keep our borders open. (We’re about to get guilds anyway) and as Peter pointed out that’s only likely to make them even madder than they are currently.

See, the problem I’m having now – is that if Piffle really ever does respond and assuming they go the direction they’ve indicated, then it’s likely we’re going to be wanting to woo Innovia over to our side – or at least preventing a Piffle/Innovia gang-up on us.
Since we won’t be able to trade with them for a long time (due to our agreements with Piffle) then this is one of our few good opportunities to score some positive diplomatic points with Innovia… or at least avoid really making them mad.

I mean, we knew from the start it was going to be pretty rotten to run all the way across their lands, and then slam the door on them when they tried to do the same – but I was ok with it, because I figured we were going to war with them right after Loco was dead. Since that’s no longer a sure thing, I hate to burn a bridge ahead of time.

Perhaps we could just say,

look, we feel really bad about this, but there’s been a popular revolt in the Golden Halls, and the team is clamoring for us to close our borders. Even though the President and I approved this OB deal without a team vote - we recognize that closing the borders now would be a pretty low thing to do, so we hope you’ll accept a compromise. Since we ran pretty much straight East across your lands, I think we can pacify our team if you’ll just agree to go straight West across our lands (with slight diversions as needed for use of forests/hills for movement and protection) – we won’t re-enter your land, and then you won’t re-enter ours.
Hopefully this can be accepted as fair?

Thoughts on that approach?

 

[peter grimes]

Darn you, General_W!

Why do you always have to come up with legitimate alternatives to whatever hard-lined approach I espouse?

I don't feel comfortable with them running across our lands. I'm sure I'm not alone in this. However, I see your point about not wanting to burn a bridge before it's time (ref. Bridge Over the River Kwai)

However, I'm not sure that we're about to get Guilds from Loco. So, if you're uncomfortable even asking them for the tech in return for not clamping shut our borders, then I guess your letter is a 'fair' compromise.

We might want to add that if they deviate much from a Westerly path, we'll shut our borders immediately.

That makes me wonder - maybe we shouldn't shut our borders, no matter how they move, until our Explorer and Caravel have moved a couple more turns. We wouldn't want to hand Innovia the Circumnavigation bonus when we shut our borders and their unit is transported to our Western border rather than our eastern one!

 

[DaveMcW]

I don't like it at all. They are in our borders for one of two reasons: to spy or circumnavigate. In two turns circumnavigation will be done, so there is no reason to reach the opposite coast anymore. So logically, they are spying.

Maybe we could send our explorer back to spy on them some more.

Personally I think we should close borders, and offer to reconsider when a trade route is available.

 

[peter grimes]

Spying does not logically follow from our assumption that circumnavigation will be accomplished in two turns.

For that to follow, logically, Innovia would have to know that circumnavigation will be done in 2 turns - which I don't think they know. For that matter, we don't even know that; we're just assuming.

Besides - you can't tell me that our unit was doing no spying in their land - that he was 'simply' trying to traverse the continent. He was indeed trying to traverse, but we all studied his line of sight very carefully to see what we could learn about Innovia: we spied.

 

[Memphus]

we don't even know that; we're just assuming..

We know that. It might even happen in 3 hours

 

[General_W]

Our options are:

A) Demand something to keep the borders open (most antagonistic)
B) Close the borders with an apology, and offer to reconsider later (antagonistic)
C) Offer to let Innovia do what we have done, make 1 trip across our lands (least antagonistic)
D) Say nothing, and just let them explore our land while we circle back and explore theirs also. (Friendly)

I’m pretty much still in camp “C” – Dave has spoken up for position “B”
I’m not sure where Peter, Memphus, or anyone else stands. This is a pretty big decision, imho, so I’d like to essentially have a team vote. Please voice your opinion!
We’re facing a trade-off between making/keeping friends with Innovia in preparation for the day when this game is down to 3 teams VS keeping our homeland’s well guarded territory a secret.

Please VOTE!

 

[peter grimes]

I'm going with B. Here's my worry as Defense Minister: once we're at war with Loco, Innovia could supply Loco with maps of our territory. That would cause great concern.

At least our supply of Iron is safe inside a city. But this line of reasoning makes me want to prevent anyone from travelling through that town, on the off chance they notice that that's where our Iron is. But that's now really what we're discussing here.

So, yeah - I'm in the B camp. But I could be persuaded....

 

[gbno1fan]

I vote C with reservation. If they stray from a path that is mainly latitudinal, then we immediately cancel the agreement without waiting for an explanation.

 

[Memphus]

B No pursation. I really want to close them next turn.

They saw our Chok this turn (that is why he didn't double to IK)
...Not that it matters as now Loco Pfiffle and Aloha can all see our resources, the fact we have iron is no secret.

 

[General_W]

Thanks for Voting GB

Total stands at 2B, 2C.

I’ll submit, as an argument for C, that since Innovia has already spied our Holy City, there’s very little left of great value for them to see heading due west. (only the fringes of Mighty Bulwark if the deviate Southish, or the extreme edges of Epsilon Eridani if the deviate Northish.)

Also the area heading West they would see, has already been partly spied by Piffle. Thus minimizing our risks of Piffle/Innovia sharing maps and coming after us at some point.

I would be more swayed by the B arguments if there was much of high-value left to see to the West. The bulk of what we really don't want seen lies further to the North, I'd say.

Anyway – more votes?

EDIT: x-post... I guess that makes it 3B, 2C
Thanks for Voting Mr. President.

 

[Memphus]

Well I would be ok if they don't step any further north. But going down the South West way they get to the edge of Pfiffle and also see that we have 2 "port" cities

 

[General_W]

so are you changing your vote to "C" if the propsal to Innovia reads "you can't deviate more than 1 tile north from your current position, and no more than 3 south" ?

 

[Memphus]

Hmm but if that was me it would make me someone else telling me where to move my unit.

I think the best thing to do would be have DaveMcW or PeterGrimes play the save and close the borders. (whoever wants to be the "bad" guy) Or it could still be me and we can save face by the original plan, I open the borders then it went to tema vote, team voted no.

 

[General_W]

yeah - as I re-read that, I agree.
We either need to be content with letting them just define "Westish" on their own (ala "C") or else just slam the borders shut.

Since the vote is currently headed towards closing the borders, it's probably time to start discussing HOW we word our notification to Innovia.

Of the methods you suggested, I think it may be best to just have you keep playing the save, and blame it on democracy.
Having Dave or Peter play the save is even more transparent, imo.

However, maybe YOU could be the one to fall on your sword, so to speak, Mr. President? If you could take a bit of a hit for me, it might help me in future negotiations?

Hey Innovia, I know you're not going to like this much, but I regret to tell you that after I signed that Open Borders deal with you (without team consultation) I was voted overwhelmingly down. Hence we're closing our borders this turn. For what it's worth, General_W wanted to honor the deal, and so he's making me send this note...
Hopefully happier days lay ahead of us.

It still makes me nervous about how this is going to make Innovia, but unless we get some late votes the other way, we better start refining and honing that note.

 

[classical_hero]

I am another B also.

 

[azzaman333]

I prefer option C.

 

[Memphus]

I Like that note alot.

If they come back and argue that we ran accross thier lands then do we have anything to offer that would reconcile the differences?

 

[peter grimes]

Let's not lose sight of the context in which they will read this note:

They open the save and hear that someone has circumnavigated. They are immediately thrown into the Diplomacy window, where they see that our borders are now closed, and their warrior is teleported to the West.

I half-wish that we weren't about to circumnavigate on this turn, as the co-incidence of the two events may more than double their ire.

I don't really have any good ideas on compensation - gift them a Caravel?? That's weird.

 

[DaveMcW]

Why do we need to compensate them? Did I miss us signing a contract?

The only thing we committed to was open borders for 10 turns.

 

[Memphus]

Why do we need to compensate them? Did I miss us signing a contract?

That is true.
It would appear even more guilty if we tried to offer them something
As if we were admitting to our deception.

Yeah after more deliberation lets just close the borders