Innovia Embassy

[peter grimes]

I agree - send this off ASAP.

 

[General_W]

ok! Sending now

 

[General_W]

Theoden of Innovia contacted me…
Here's an edited version of the chat

Spoiler :

Theoden:
Hi, GeneralW
General_W:
Hey Theoden!
How's life?
Theoden:
ah, a deep question... without getting into endless detail i will just say it's d*mn good
General_W:
LOL a fine answer
Theoden:
and how about you? how's the newborn?
General_W:
She's doing great. Keeping her parents up at night... but at least she's cute
Theoden:
lol.. that's good to hear
General_W:
Hey - I think I just sent a letter not too long about about the Silks/Whales deal. Is that still on the table?
Theoden:
yes, I saw your letter... the offer is still on the table
General_W:
ok. good deal
Theoden:
our president just the offer in-game before I could contact you
I know, we're aoffering a health resource for a happy, so enjoy our generousity
General_W:
no problem... but the way our team constitution is, the President can't just accept those deals.
uhmm... I think Silk is a happy resource
not to look down on your generosity!
Theoden:
oh, right I completely messed that one up
anyway, I think it's a good deal for us both
General_W:
I agree. There was no argument from the team at all
Theoden:
I wonder... what was you reasoning for closing the borders? switching to mercantilism soon?
General_W:
No - I still feel kinda bad about that. Our team has just taken a real hardline stance on trying to keep our map secure.
I think we sent a letter offering a no-units OB deal... but didn't hear back (we assumed you were just justifiably annoyed)
Theoden:
I don't know if we'll agree with that... but personally I'd say you gotta take the good with the bad in an OB-deal... just out of curiosity though, would a no-unit agreement include your otherwise intruder-capable caravels?
General_W:
That could certainly be negotiated. Now that CircumNav is done, we'd probably agree to that.
Theoden:
which reminds me... as you'll notice if you've opened up the latest save we have switched to mercantilism, so there is little reason to open the borders as we'll just give you trade and nothing in return
General_W:
oh yeah... - I did notice that
guess it's a moot point now! lol
If you decide to take advantage of the spiritual trait and switch to something more open, let us know, and we can probably look at a no-units no-caravels OB deal at that point.
Theoden:
I'll remember that
General_W:
We noticed you passed us in the power graph! ! I hope Epsilon isn't the target of hordes of angry camel archers?
Theoden:
*looks out window* I don't know what you're talking about... and that's definitely not a horde of camels in the background
General_W:
lol
ok - coy answer. I can cope with that, I guess.
Theoden:
Seriously, we're happy to be number one in power
it makes villain nations think twice before attacking
General_W:
yeah - believe me, as long time score leader, we understand paranoia.
Theoden:
regarding power and the current situation i have an offer... since you feel bad about cancelling the OB, there has been a desire within my team to reestablish our friendship by making a non-aggression pact for a number of turns
this could also help with the paranoia that both of us feels...
General_W:
yeah - I like the sound of that. (and this is going to sound suspicious) but I've got an early business lunch I've got to go to - can we pick this up when I get bck?
before I go, let me say that I think we can totally draft something that will be agreeable.
Theoden:
sure
i may be eating dinner when you come back though, but some point later tonight...
General_W:
yeah - no problem. If I miss you, I'll just go ahead and start drafting a letter to send in our forums anyway.
Theoden:
sounds good
General_W:
before I run - did you have a turn number in mind?
Theoden:
to be honest, i don't
General_W:
ok - not a problem. We'll cook something up.
Thanks for saying hi. Talk to you more at some point I'm sure! Enjoy dinner.
Theoden:
see you

So here's my customary summary for those not inclined to read the whole thing…

SUMMARY

• Innovia still wants the deal of Silks for Whale
• Innovia is not interested in a no-units OB deal at this time, due to running Mercantilism.
• However, they ARE interested in some kind of a non-aggression treaty with us to last X number of turns to be negotiated. Will be looking for some kind of proposal from us.

Now – feel free to shoot me down on this – but a non-aggression deal that lasts, say, 30-40 turns? Could be just the ticket for us. Totally free us up to go nuts on Loco without worrying overmuch much about the homeland.

What does everyone think?

Let's start drafting something!

 

[DaveMcW]

Here are some possible reasons we should consider a NAP:
1. Don't fear attack on our homeland.
2. Encourage them to attack Loco sooner.
3. Mask our true intentions.
4. Open the door for tech trading.

And here's why none of them work:
1. Innovia is incapable of doing a naval invasion for 30-40 more turns.
2. We don't want anyone else taking Loco's land. Sure they might get bogged down, but with Innovia's homeland secured by our NAP they can commit 100% of their resources.
3. I expect Innovia will demand terms that force us to reveal our true intentions or backstab them later. In other words, it can easily backfire.
4. Not an option.

So am leaning towards "No NAP", unless someone can think of another reason.

 

[General_W]

excellent points... but are we worried that since they asked, if we say "no" that we then move to the top of the enemy list?

Maybe we should just offer a really weak NAP, and if they decline, so be it.

as I was typing this, Theoden showed back up... so I did some serious backpedaling. Judge the results for yourself...

Spoiler :

Theoden:
Hi again, I'm back
General_W:
hey - dinner was good I trust?
Theoden:
Again, a deep question... so I'll just say very delicious.
General_W:
lol - never realized I was such a deep person
General_W:
Well - I posted our chat for discussion, and it's already starting.
Did you have anything else you wanted to add?
Theoden:
i posted it too, but no discussion so far
General_W:
(already starting = 1 post)
Theoden:
no, I don't think there was anything else at the moment
General_W:
Ok. no problem. Once the team starts to get a consensus, I'll let you know what sakes loose.
Theoden:
what are the turn numbers you have thought about, if any? realisitically, what would you agree to?
General_W:
well, probably not too long. Based on the one comment so far, we don't think a naval invasion by either of us is realistic for quite a while, and don't really want to get soo nailed down that we can't respond to potential international developments.
Theoden:
astronomy is right around the corner though
General_W:
IE - if one of us developed an ally, and the other attacked them.
Theoden:
yeah, I don't think a one-on-one war between us is in anyone's interest except our enemies
General_W:
exactly
We'll see what the rest of the team says, but we may just end up going with a mutual understanding that invading eachother is really counter-productive for both of us.
I mean, I hope it doesn't come to blows, both our nations are prospering from peace... but sometimes a theat of violence helps keep the peace.
Business conference call - gotta run here. sorry. I'll keep you posted.
Theoden:
no problem
but I think the idea of the non-aggression pact was to avoid wars even in the case of alliances
I'm sure that no unprovoked war will arise
- theoden has signed off -

I aimed for vagueness – but I think Theoden only bought ½ of it (if that).

What now? I'm still thinking some kind of weak treaty might be nice?

 

[DaveMcW]

Allow me to translate.

We are going to kill Loco, wanna watch?

No, you'll grow too powerful if we let you.

Crap, the plan is already in motion, I'll have to find something to offer you.

 

[Memphus]

Hmm The way I see it with thier recent spike in power they are probably trying to take out Loco with Camel Archers...this could potentially work out in our favor..If Loco has any defences at all...

 

[General_W]

@ DaveMcW -

yeah, I'm afraid you and Memphus are exactly right.
I don't know... Innovia could get a pretty big jump on us in attacking Loco... if Loco goes down like a house of cards, as expected, then we may just have to skip straight to the fighting of Innovia.

Making a NAP an even worse idea.

Still - just for diplomatic reasons - we need to respond with something. What should we say?

"Sorry - no peace deal, but rest assured we welcome the chance to trade with you and harbor no plans to invade you."
(Which is true, for the moment.)

What do you think?

 

[DaveMcW]

I think even promising not to attack them is too much.

Until our invasion force is ready, we have 2 options to slow down Innovia
- Sell Ivory to Loco.
- Force Innovia to leave some troops home to defend against a naval invasion.

 

[peter grimes]

Dave, you are literally killing me!

As enjoyable as his diplomatic analysis may be, he's really hit the nail on the head. Innovia seems to be trying to secure their back side from an attack by us, and that's only natural.

I dont' see the point in saying that we're 'holding the door open' for tech trades... let's take a hard line, and make them believe that we view an attack on Loco as an attack on Epsilon.

It will be difficult for General_W to back pedal out of this proposal, but he can justifiably hang me or Memphus.

And, Dave's idea about selling Ivory to Loco is intriguing, but scary. We sell them Ivory, so that they can build War Elephants. But then, when we invade, we're facing elephants that were provided by our own trade-happy foreign office!! We should only sell Ivory to Loco 2 or 3 turns before the invasion, at most; to limit the number of units they can produce.

The best solution is to force Innovia to leave untis home, by not garaunteeing that we'll refrain from attacking. As an American Diplomat would say, "All options are on the table"

 

[DaveMcW]

I wouldn't go so far as to imply we have a defense pact with Loco.

Just tell them that allowing them to steamroll Loco is not in our long-term best interests.

 

[General_W]

Ok… well then, here's a draft response.
I'm feeling a bit more confident now that we've got M.T. under our belt, and gunpowder is just around the corner.

Basically, I'm just aiming for a vague but ominous tone. We're not exactly promising or threatening anything. Let them make of it what they will.

Please respond with your comments – I don't think we're in any great hurry to respond.

Dear Innovia,

I regret to inform you that the ruling council of Epsilon has voted against signing any kind of non-aggression pact with you.

Your recent military buildup is a matter of grave concern, and we cannot in good faith offer to tie our own hands.

Please understand, we enjoy our peaceful relations with you and sincerely hope they continue.

All the Best,

Foreign Minister General_W
Servant of the Leader
Epsilon Team!

thoughts?

 

[DaveMcW]

Sounds good.

 

[Memphus]

I Like it.

It will make them nervous enough to not soley focus on wiping out Loco.

They will have to be concerned with units around thier homeland.
(I think as soon as we Get Astronomy we should send a Frigae their way to park outside thier borders as a scare tactic...but that is another conversation)

 

[peter grimes]

Yup - Well worded, and the terseness adds to the mystery

 

[General_W]

Theoden grabbed me in a chat - so I sent this while talking to him.

I had to do some dancing, but I think it went pretty well. I'll post the chat as soon as I've had a chance to edit it a bit.

 

[General_W]

Here's the chat with Theoden.
Not much new. Not too happy with our rejection of the treaty, obviously. Read between the lines there for yourself, and offer any psycho-analysis you have!

Only other tidbit was that Innovia doesn't have very many active people.
Once again- hooray for our team!

Spoiler Full Chat :

Theoden:
Hi, General
General_W:
Hey there all is well I trust?
Theoden:
yup, it's weekend = extremely well
General_W:
still friday morning here. Almost lunchtime
Theoden:
and Evangeline is still fine I trust?
General_W:
yeah - little bit of a runny nose thing. But nothing bad. Humidifier is helping a lot
Hey - I know I owe Innovia a letter. It's actually been written, I just haven't sent it.
let me double check the forum here....
Theoden:
yep, that was what I was getting at... the big letter
General_W:
ok - everyone has approved the final draft (all the real actives anyway) you want it in PM or to Innovia gmail?
Theoden:
PM works fine
General_W:
gotta warn you. It's not what you want to hear, I'm afraid
Theoden:
hum... i'll look at it before i comment
General_W:
yeah.
ok. sent.
Theoden:
well, i'm sorry to hear that response, but at least i tried
General_W:
yeah. I hate being the bearer of sad news.
Theoden:
although, if you suspect a military buildup wouldn't it be a good idea to ensure that you aren't the target of it?
General_W:
lol - no doubt. But I think my team feels ok about it because we've got a decent army and an ocean between us.
This game is reaching the point where the longstanding peace just can't possibly hold much longer, and the team concensus is that we need to be ready to act.
Theoden:
sure you do.... and since we offered you a non-aggressoin pact we probably won't attack you right away
so you think the first war might come soon?
General_W:
well - I don't think this game is going to a space race or cultural victory, if that's what you mean! LOL
Theoden:
surely not cultural, but why not space?
I thought you were heading for space with that economic buildup (or whatever you're doing there overseas)
General_W:
Yeah, I can't say I'd be disapointed if it went to a space race... and maybe it will. But just from PBEM experiance, if anyone is far enough ahead to think they can do it, they're going to have a world war on their hands.
Human nature I suppose
Theoden:
good point, although DaveMcW managed to pull off one such space race victory in the pitboss game despite a world war, and he is on your team IIRC
General_W:
That's true! Sadly dave is no longer in our official government - but he's still active.
but even in your example... there's still a war going on
Truthfully, I think we're all very surprised and pleased that the peace has lasted this long.
I hope our recent trade of silks gives you some peace of mind that we're not planning an invasion or anything rash.
Theoden:
that must be because it benefits everyone strong enough to make a war
General_W:
(kudos on the silk trades, btw... what's that? 3 resources for 1! very nice)
Theoden:
no, I don't think you would invade *us* first... someone else though, i don't know
yes, our great surplus of silks have served us well on the global market
How big is your official government actually?
General_W:
5 Main position - President, Domestic Minister, Defense Minister, Foreign Minister, and Department of Nomenclature
Theoden:
Nomenclature?
General_W:
Naming stuff
Theoden:
wow, you must have a lot of activtity with 5 official positions
ah, i see... we just do the naming things anarchisticly
General_W:
lol - well, I've been pretty happy with it. I'd say we've got about 7 very actives, and 2-3 semi-actives, and then a few that just pop up every now and then.
How about your actives?
Theoden:
3 very actives who manage the day to day stuff, a few who are moderately active and 3-4 people who pop in once a month for a comment
but we've just sent messages to all the old members who are no longer active... will hopefully get more people involved
General_W:
sounds good. I think have a lot of official positions helps keep some people active.
but that's just my opinion... I wrote much of our Constitution. lol
Theoden:
yeah, we tried it but it just didn't work out... the only official position is mine as foreign minister & UN rep
constitution? what's that?
General_W:
ours hit the text limit for a single post! LOL
Theoden:
So, how much time do you spend on bureaucracy?
General_W:
Not much really. Mostly it's just who manages which threads, and who is responsible to post updates. Our team stays pretty well informed with multiple people posting updates about what happened on each turn
don't even really need to open the save to stay fully informed.
depends if you consider that bureaucracy or not, I guess.
My foreign updates take quite a bit of my time.
Theoden:
In comparison, I guess we're lazy and uninformed then though we do post a lot of screenshots
General_W:
lol - nah. To each their own.
Theoden:
maybe, if we had more active members... but as it is now the current system is most effective
General_W:
yeah. It's good to be flexible.
Any fun plans for the weekend?
Theoden:
nah, just catching up on stuff that needs to be done
how about you? I suppose you can't go much out with the newborn an' all?
General_W:
not too much. But we've got 2 sets of grandparents in town... so lots of ready-made babysitting for when she's a bit older
My wife and I are kind of homebodies anymore now. We've gotten lamer as we've gotten older. LOL
Theoden:
lol, hopefully you'll stop getting lamer at some point
General_W:
I'd better, or I'll be in big trouble!
hey - I gotta run to lunch here. Always a pleasure talking with you. Sorry I didn't have the best news.
Theoden:
well, you can't get lucky every time... have a good lunch.
General_W:
thanks. talk to you later
Theoden:
See you

 

[Memphus]

The one thing I draw from this is that DaveMcW isn't in hte "official" Government right now.

BTW doesn't it ptentially change in 1 turn?

Come on Dave I know you want back in

 

[peter grimes]

Well I guess all hopes of vagueness are gone. He rightly inferred that we are building up for an attack, and we won't be attacking Innovia. They'd be pretty thick to not see our relationship with Piffle, so that leaves Aloha and Loco. Assuming Innovia knows roughly the layout of the map, they'll know that Aloha is further away than Loco, leaving just one obvious target for us.

I wonder if it would have been better had we sent the letter and nothing else

Well, since they now have an army comparable to ours, and have Nationalism to boot, we'll have to arrange to get Rifling. Riflemen are +50% against Cavalry, right?

 

[General_W]

Couple points.

1) I was hoping to avoid talking to Theoden, but he jumped me. I could have ignored him... but, I really don't think he got anything from the chat that wasn't also in the letter. (or obvious from looking at the power graph)

2) I think Aloha is actually just as close as Loco is. No land bridge, but by sea, they may actually be closer. (Though you're right, Loco is the obvious better target for other reasons, I'd say)

3) Aloha has Nationalism, not Innovia. And Aloha hasn't been in a hurry to give up Divine Right... we'll see what they do with Nationalism. It's not a done deal, I'd say.

Que Sera, Sera (spelling?) - What will be, will be.