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Input wanted: Khmer Empire for VP

Discussion in 'Community Patch Project' started by pineappledan, May 1, 2019.

  1. pineappledan

    pineappledan Deity

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    With the new addition of Public works and urbanization I've wanted to revisit an attempt I made at making a compatible version of Sukritact's Khmer empire. I am looking for design input for how I could make the civ unique and fun, while staying true to Sukritact's original design

    In particular, I would love some feedback on the Royal Tromeak and Prasat. I'm not sure what bonuses would fit best on them, but the latest few patches have provided some interesting tools for tall play. The Tromeak presents a problem in particular because I would prefer to stay close to Sukritact's original bonus to internal trade routes, but I can't think of a way to implement it so that the AI understands it. Instead, I decided to make Tromeaks boost bulbing, so Khmers have the biggest GE :c5production:bulbs of any civ.
    Spoiler Sukritact's Khmer for VP :


    UA - Great Barays of Angkor

    • Gain +50 :c5food: Food and :c5faith: Faith on the completion of a World Wonder or Public Works Project, scaling with era.
    • +1:c5greatperson: Great Engineer Point in the City For every World Wonder or Public Works in a City

    UGP - Royal Tromeak (great engineer)
    3 movement
    Can build Prangs
    Can Hurry Production in a city
    On expend, increases instant yield boost for all subsequent Engineers/Tromeaks by 10%

    UI - Prang (from DJS Henninger mod)
    Unique Great Person Tile Improvement built by Royal Tromeak
    Must be built Adjacent to a city.
    Does not remove Features.

    +4:c5production:, +2:c5faith:, +2:c5culture:
    +1 :c5food: from every Religious buildings in Nearby City (Shrine, Temple, Grand Temple, Monastery, all Religious Belief buildings)
    +1 :c5faith: from all Food buildings in Nearby City (Granary, Aqueduct, Grocer, Agribusiness, Hospital, Medical Lab)
    +2 :c5culture: if City has a World Wonder
    +2:c5production: if city has a Factory
    +1 :c5production: for every 3 :c5citizen: population in City
    +5%:c5production:Production towards Wonders in City working a Prang
    +20% Hurry Production boost for Great Engineers


    UU - Dhomrey (trebuchet) - (Ballista Elephant From Champa Mod)
    Unlocked at Physics
    200:c5production: (+25 from trebuchet)
    15:c5strength: CS 24 :c5rangedstrength:RCS (+4 CS, +2 RCS)
    2 Range
    3 Movement
    Feared Elephant Promotion
    Field I Promotion

    Cover I
    1/2 movement in enemy terrain
    200% vs cities
    -25% vs naval and land units
    Is a mounted unit (spearman +50% bonus is applied)


    3UC - UB -
    Prasat (replaces Temple)
    available at Philosophy
    200 :c5production: Production Cost

    +3 :c5faith: Faith, +2:c5food: Food, and +2 :c5culture: Culture
    +33%:c5production:Production towards Processes
    1 Specialist does not Generate :c5unhappy: Unhappiness from Urbanization for each Public Work in City

    +50% Religious Pressure

    -1 :c5unhappy: Unhappiness from Religious Unrest
    +1:c5culture: and +1:c5gold: from Incense, Wine and Amber.



    4UC - UU - Chivopol (Spearman)(icon from Lastsword' Khmer mod, modified Pesilat unit model)
    Unlocked at Construction
    60:c5production: (down from 70)
    11 :c5strength:CS
    Bonus vs Mounted (+50%)
    Bokator - +10%:c5strength:CS
    Rice Farmer - Unit does not cost Supply. Can repair improvements, and construct all pre-industrial improvements as if it were a worker (Farms, Mines, Quarries, Pastures, Plantations, Camps, Lumber Mills, Logging Camp, Village, Roads and Forts). Lost on upgrade.
     
    Last edited: May 3, 2019
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  2. Rafs

    Rafs Warlord

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    Looks interesting, I assume the GE points are permanent, but the manufactory replacement via the Royal Tromeak I think is a bit too strong, as you are getting lots of good yields aside from the hammers. I'd probably lower the hammers per population a to 1 per 5 but I'm no master of balance. I'd probably have to play some games to tell if its very broken or not, but it makes it very tempting to go for GE points wonders to stack up the bonus as much as you can with UA and UGP. The UU seems very nice.
    Also, love the spearman replacement for the 4UC.
     
  3. Rekk

    Rekk Emperor

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    What's aTemple Mountain?
     
  4. pineappledan

    pineappledan Deity

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    Oops! The way I described it doesn't account for conquests. I've changed the wording. I also axed the :c5food:/:c5faith: from national wonders because there's too many of them that come in Classical. It ended up being a bit of a problem because you would grow pretty big and enhance just on completing your CMaximus/HEpic/NMonument/OUniversity/GTemple/SPhilosophy/ScrivOff. It was a guaranteed 450:c5food:/:c5faith: in rapid succession, plus the world wonders in there too. Way too much
    I was considering reducing the faith and culture to 1, but I wouldn’t touch the production. Actually, I might increase it.

    A normal manufactory gives 6:c5production: and goes up to 9:c5production: At metal casting. This means that a prang needs to be next to a city of 9:c5citizen: or more to match a manufactory in ancient, and 18:c5citizen: in medieval/renaissance, etc. To match. The last boost to manufactories is at Combined arms, for a total of 15:c5production: The prang also doesn’t get the 2:c5production: boost from factories that a manufactory gets. In order to compete with that, you need a 42:c5citizen: city by late game, and you are limited to 6 per city, less if coastal. All considered, I think I might increase the base :c5production: to 4 and add the factory boost
    the old name for prang. Thanks for pointing that out. Fixed
     
    Last edited: May 2, 2019
  5. Hinin

    Hinin King

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    Questions :
    - Do the Royal Tromeak keep the ability to built Manufactories ?
    - Do the Prang improve resources like the Kasbah do ?

    Also, I think the Teahean is an interesting unit, but that the Bokator promotion is quite bland. I propose instead something we previously tried for the Goedendag : make the unit stronger on certain tiles, specifically, tiles with improvements (maybe a +20 % CS ?), so that it can serve a very defensive role, protecting key parts of your economy (the promotion would be kept on upgrade, but I'm sure you would have done that anyway). What do you think of this ? Would it affect performance ?
     
  6. pineappledan

    pineappledan Deity

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    Didn’t want to confuse the AI, so no. Prangs only
    Yes, it’s a GP tile, so it improves non-luxury resources
    the bokator promotion is just so that the teahean has something that will stay on upgrade. Teahean are peasant levies, the word is literally “conscript” in Khmer, though I could change the name to chivopol (militia) to further differentiate from hokath’s khmers. At any rate, the 10% is supposed to be a free Authority Conscription promotion.

    A +20% on specific tiles would have to check every time a unit moves, which is one of the most costly calculations you can do. I would be very hesitant to use a UnitSetXY() on anything anymore, but there may be some other way to do it that I’m not aware of.
     
  7. Bhawb

    Bhawb Prince

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    The Bokator promotion seems amazing to me. My favorite part of Rome's entire kit is using Legions to build roads/forts early on so that my workers can all focus on improving better tiles, and that is extremely limited compared to being full on worker replacements until you need Railroads, so these units are perfect defensive options for the whole game. Just as a note, I see Villages aren't listed in what they can build, is that on purpose or just an accidental omission?
     
  8. Hinin

    Hinin King

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    The overall Chivopol unit is good, but the Bokator promotion is just a basic "+10 % CS" promotion (so the same kind as conscription) only made so that the upgraded units have keep some elements of the UU. I'm not sure for now what could replace it while staying true to the theme of the unit (maybe a maintenance cost annulation, like the Venitian UM from MUCfVP ?), but I still think this promotion could be made much more interesting.
     
  9. Bhawb

    Bhawb Prince

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    To clarify, the unit only keeps the +10% CS and not the tile stuff? If so then yeah, that's mediocre. If we're talking conscripts, things like not using military supply (really nice for a tall-focused civ), maintenance cost reduction/removal, defensive bonuses in friendly territory, or something along those lines would be great.
     
  10. pineappledan

    pineappledan Deity

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    Yes, you can’t have unitbuilds stay on upgrade, we’re onyl talking about the 10%CS, or whatever it turns into. It also has to be something that can be tied to an upgrade. Unit maintenance is tied to the unitType, and I believe no supply is actually tied to UnitClass (ie cruise missiles, etc.). I could be wrong though

    I don’t really want to pigeonhole the unit into defense. The khmer’s other UU is a siege unit, after all, and the ability to repair means you can get a captured city back up after pillaging very quickly.
     
    Last edited: May 2, 2019
  11. Bhawb

    Bhawb Prince

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    What about the Authority policy promotion? The current one is lost on upgrade, but is that part of the promotion hard coded?

    While true, the siege unit gains Field, not Siege, so it isn't a particularly amazing city taker. It is very unlikely that a Tradition civ is going to be able to field enough units to successfully wage offensive war and still have leftover supply for a Spearman UU. And the civ has no direct bonuses to combat or conquering cities, so you're relying entirely on a Treb UU to carry your warfare. I just don't see any real offensive combo here.
     
  12. pineappledan

    pineappledan Deity

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    oh yeah, I forgot about that. Still, I wouldn’t want pikemen/Tercios with no supply running around. I think I could do that, but I would tie it to the rice farmer promotion and have it dropped on upgrade. That doesn’t fix your main concern: that bokator is boring.
    i agree with you, but just because there is no obvious agressive edge to this civ doesn’t mean I should explicitly lock the UU to defense. I am down for adding something else to bokator, maybe a hard +5 on all damage dealt, or some other general boost, but I don’t want to lock the unit to homeguard
     
  13. Bhawb

    Bhawb Prince

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    I think that's fair. Is there any historical flavor we could "borrow"?
     
  14. pineappledan

    pineappledan Deity

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    Bokator means “to pound a lion”. It is the second-oldest Cambodian martial art in, second only to Pradal Saray, an unarmed martial art form that is the progenitor of southeast Asian kickboxing forms (muay Thai, etc.). The form is descended from older Indian forms which mimic animal movements for their strikes, as well as cross-pollination with Malaysian Silat, which mostly derives from South Chinese martial art forms.

    The oldest evidence we have of bokator is bas-reliefs from 3rd century Funan culture depicting the martial forms. Funan were the predecessors of the Chenla, the predecessors of the Khmer. The Khmer Rouge stamped out practice of all Cambodian martial arts in the 70s, considering them a form of folk-culture and incompatible with communism. The succeeding Vietnamese occupation continued to suppress and hunt down Cambodian martial artists on the grounds that they might foment and train a popular rebellion. Almost nothing remains of Cambodia’s rich martial arts heritage; practitioners of bokator were either murdered or fled as refugees.

    There is some evidence that bokator and other similar disciplines were widely practiced among the lowest castes in Cambodia. The peasant roots are evident in surviving Cambodian weapons like the nunchaku, bokgatau, and sai, which spread from Southeast Asia to Okinawa, Japan. Okinawan karate has a direct lineage with bokator.
     
    Last edited: May 2, 2019
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  15. hokath

    hokath King

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    Love the design. I'm a big fan of the custom civs that interact with those systems new to VP, so this `process flavor' really does it for me.
    When we talked about Khmer a while ago I didn't really like the Temple Mountain, but as a GP tile its much nicer. I'd take down my version of Khmer in favor of this one, now.
    You should try to use that Baray icon somewhere though, its just too pretty not to. How about replacing the Prasat: same effects-ish but as a Baths that doesn't require water?
    Also, I thought this LS militia icon was better, don't know what you think?

    Edit: The only thing I really liked about my version of Khmer was the part of that the UA also encouraged the taking of wonders from other players. You have a similar thing with GP points, but perhaps you could add(shift) some (of the) power there? It would certainly make the civ feel less peaceful/defense heavy, if that is a concern.
     
    Last edited: May 2, 2019
  16. pineappledan

    pineappledan Deity

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    No need I think. We can give people the choice of the one they prefer. That's why I stayed clear of the icons and names you used, except the Dhomrey. That one is unavoidable :p
    The Barays are referenced in the UA, so I didn't want to double-dip. I think the Prasat is a fine choice, and it has the benefit of straying less from Sukritact's original design.
    I actually prefer the one I used, but that's just personal choice. My wife agrees with you too, so maybe I’m just crazy. Once again, your Khmer mod was all the more reason to differentiate the unit's name and icon.
    I'm not concerned about making the Khmer more aggressive, no. There's only 2 other wonder-oriented civs: Egypt is fairly aggressive and Babylon is explicitly defensive. Putting as much of a neutral spin on Khmer w.r.t. warfare is the best move, imo
     
    Last edited: May 2, 2019
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  17. Rafs

    Rafs Warlord

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    I though the prang would get the manufactory :c5production: improvements with techs and buildings (so that's why I was worried about population increase). If it as you described, then I think its a fair tradeoff and would probably need the boost you suggested in the end.

    Regarding the 4UC, I think you either commit to it being a strong unit (I think 10% cs is kind of weak and bland), or you maintain it's rice farmer promo, but you do not give it anything else.
    For me it feels like a good tradeoff if it's only the rice farmer, you have a worker that can fend for himself, but he uses your supply so it's not all positives if you want to play more agressively, and he won't really give you an edge on conquests compared to other UU.
     
  18. pineappledan

    pineappledan Deity

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