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Input wanted: The Philippines for VP

Discussion in 'Community Patch Project' started by pineappledan, Nov 17, 2019.

  1. Viralvoid

    Viralvoid Warlord

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    TBH, this civ is not designed ONLY for us as their player.

    Balangay is really good for naval expansion and exploration, which can also be used for aggressive or defensive early wars. Pre-colonial Philippines is full of wars and raids, our archipelago is not always peaceful.

    I realized that Lantaka is not that "warlike" because it can also be used to defend your archipelago with your empowered navy. Lantaka is like a normal cannon when on land, so technically, It is NOT really designed for enhance siege. It's up to the player whether to utilize this or not.

    Katipunero is not designed for warring, I can see it as a tool to farm culture from your UA. Like what I've said, it can be utilized too since it is stronger compared to normal Fusilier, and it is invisible.

    Tourism and religion were addressed by Coral Church, I know that it's not it enough, but for the sake of balance and flavor, I think it's nice. Trade and culture were addressed by the civ's UA.

    Overall, I think the current design fits perfectly, as a Filipino as well.
     
    Last edited: Dec 1, 2019
  2. ofmiciv5

    ofmiciv5 Warlord

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    im talking about the additional UU (lantaka and balangay), i have nothing against the current katipunero and coral church as it fits the current era of rizal and the UA itself. they would consider making UU on religion and trade based like enhanced missionaries and trade cargo ships. katipunero is enough for being a UU 'warring'.
     
  3. pineappledan

    pineappledan Deity

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    I wouldn't say the civ is being pushed towards warring by the components. The UA specifically requires at least peaceful relations enough with neighbouring civs that you can trade with them. In a weird way, the original UA encouraged warring more than the current one (more border blob, more chances for enemy units to enter your territory)

    I suggested to TPang, who is also Filipino, the idea of adding some religious play and he didn't much like the idea. As an outsider I can't claim to understand completely, but I've done a small bit of reading on the problems with inter-religious violence in the Philippines. It seems like a perfectly reasonable thing to decide to add a single nod to religion in the islands with a bit of late-game faith, but not to put a finer point on it, since there's a lot bubbling below the surface. Civs whose main religious identity isn't endemic are also a bit harder to reflect in civ's mechanics (japanese shinto, Indian hinduism, etc.)

    And yeah, Personally, I really wanted to add some pre-colonial components to the Philippines so they don't have all their components unlock at the same time. As I have said, I would have loved to have a Karakoa instead of the Lantaka, but that's kind of specific to the Visayas and there's no outrigger boat models for civ5. There's not that many pre-colonial pan-filipino cultural markers from what I could find either. Too diverse.
     
    Last edited: Dec 1, 2019
  4. ofmiciv5

    ofmiciv5 Warlord

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    i was 'pushing' for more religious play because philippines is predominantly catholic and perhaps the only country in asia who mains that religion and being so religiously. while it doesnt have that unique religion from the start, it was and has started being a so religious country precisely at the start of colonial era which was TPangolin's overall mod is for.

    hmmm.... just some random idea other than what is said before.... for the 4UC... the base is good as it is, how about making a unique luxury resource alike of (rice, banana, tobacco)? unique improvements like (fort, farms)? unique buildings (bahay kubo)? how about make a missionary who stations on a city give boosts to any of the following (gold, faith)? unique great person such as (datu) that gives off an aura on something?
     
  5. Viralvoid

    Viralvoid Warlord

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    I also don't like to add more religious unique component on the civ, Coral Churches are enough. I just wanted to say that the church's bonus on faith purchase is hard to maintain without proper faith per turn, +2 faith is not enough. I have an idea for a pseudo-religious play but focuses on following other Civ's religion. Same with the current UA (culture), but I wanted to add a bonus faith for every foreign missionary/Great Prophet on your land. I wanted to resurface the idea that the Philippines is a religious civ, but not a founder. Additionally, giving Coral Church's the ability to reduce religious unrest could help.

    It's hard to think of a UU or UB that can represent the whole pre-colonial Philippines because, like what you've said, it is too diverse and it's not the Philippines we know. That's why I suggested Barangay (nipa huts) UI on my earlier posts, because it is multi-ethnic and can be found everywhere.

    Have you decided to make the UA military units only? will you include trade units?
     
  6. pineappledan

    pineappledan Deity

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    @TPangolin and I have been back and forth on this issue.

    It sounds like the production siphoning ability is to everyone's satisfaction, so we still need to come to an agreement on how the :c5culture: culture for units in foreign territory would work and the open borders agreement ability.

    Here's my thoughts
    With military units, you get the inherent control of the :c5war: military supply system putting a cap on how much :c5culture:culture you can reasonably collect each turn, but even that might not be enough of a control, especially if you get yourself a vassal and can just aprk all your men in their territory indefinitely. There's also the problem of flavor, and the Philippines parking massive garrisons in foreign countries looks more like an occupation. Or America. Or an American Occupation than the Philippines.

    So my newest proposal:
    UA: Pearl of the Orient
    Gain :c5culture:Culture when your :trade:Trade units move through Foreign territory and when Foreign :trade:Trade Units move through your territory. :trade:Trade Route Origin Cities receive 25% progress towards the Target City’s :c5production:Production each turn

    Benefits:
    • Trade Routes are transient by nature, so no parking units
    • The culture would be triggered on movement, rather than at the end of each turn, the same as Portugal's UA. This resolves an issue where trade units moving through your land but not stopping give you no culture.
    • Trade Units are far less numerous, so the numbers can be larger
    • The mechanic stays firmly with non-military units, and rules are consistent between which of your units and their units give you culture.
    • Does away with the Open borders thing, reducing the UA to 2 components and streamlining it.
    TPangolin has made a counter-proposal:
    UA: Pearl of the Orient
    :trade:Trade Routes grant Open Borders and 25% of the Target City's specific :c5production:Production progress each turn. Gain :c5culture:Culture from Trade Units in foreign territory and foreign Units you are not at war with in your territory.
    • Retains more of the original design from the vanilla mod
    • :c5culture: culture from all foreign unit types opens up culture from foreign missionaries and military units passing through your land.
    • Emphasis remains on making your territory attractive for foreign visitors of all kinds

    Also, TPang and I were talking about moving the Balangay to the main mod, and moving the Coral Church to 4UC.

    Thoughts? @TPangolin, let me know if I have represented your arguments fairly.
     
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  7. ofmiciv5

    ofmiciv5 Warlord

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    is it possible and not 'op' if you combined your new UA to TP's (Gain :c5culture:Culture from Trade Units in foreign territory and foreign Units you are not at war with in your territory.)? any final decision on base 2 uniques and for 4UC?
     
  8. Guynemer

    Guynemer Prince

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    I think I prefer your proposal, Dan, since it doesn't rely so much on the AI putting units in my territory, just trade which they are gonna do anyway. Also, eliminating the open borders thing makes it simpler to understand.
     
  9. TPangolin

    TPangolin Just the worst person

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    My issue with the elimination of the 'Open Borders + Foreign Units in your territory' trait is that - as Dan pointed out, it would eliminate reminiscence and elements of the original mod design (as many of the other CL conversions have done). I understand that simplicity is required to evoke a sense of a vanilla-esque experience (vanilla as is relevant to VP), but I feel the further that it strays from the original design, the further the intentionality behind the playstyle, alongside the representative flavour is lost. A part of the intention behind many CL mods is to change how the player approaches the game; thus a reduction to an exclusively Trade based ability doesn't change approaches beyond a more explicit management of Trade Routes. As Dan pointed out, the 'emphasis remaining on making your territory attractive for foreign visitors of all kinds' changes gameplay approaches significantly, as it implicitly encourages the player (with the Balangay) to forward settle, and maintain positive diplomatic relationships.

    If there were a proposal that existed that could keep the ethos and intentions behind the original mod, then I'm absolutely for it. Sorry if I sound like a stickler :p.
     
  10. pineappledan

    pineappledan Deity

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    The original civ's UA has 2 components:
    • Free Cargo ship from Open Borders
    • Culture from foreign units in your borders
    The production gained from trade routes was not in the original design. Keeping an open borders bonus, the culture from foreign units bonus, and the new trade mechanic 3 disparate, but semi-connected things all at once. I think one of them should be dropped.

    Open borders:
    • When a civ's unique ability requires a later tech to unlock, like Open border treaties in late medieval, it can feel like you're playing with a short hand for a lot of the game. There are still civs that have era-locked bonuses of course (any civ with bonuses to the world congress for instance), but it's more fun if an ability can get unlocked earlier (Polynesia and deep oceans)
    • My proposal to make Open borders forced on some certain condition could be a way around this, but on further consideration, it might feel like an AI is strong-arming a player if they can force a diplomatic action onto a civ without a human player agreeing to it. Maybe I don't want Philippine units passing through my borders, but if my only recourse is to declare war on them, then it could be pretty frustrating.
    • It was very easy to max out your trade slots with this UA, but that also meant that the bonus for free cargo ships didnt do anything once you were full up on them.
    Trade Unit Production siphoning:
    • This got at TPang's original design for the civ to give them a possibility of cloning another civ's unique components (UUs or UBs) by absorbing them through culture, rather than invading and assimilating them. It emphasizes trade like the original civ's design. It also has an internal trade component, however, because you could distribute production from one of your cities by pumping it full of internal :c5production:production trade routes.
    • The potential for this ability is obviously much higher with internal trade routes, but I think we can agree that we wan't to emphasize external trade routes with this culture.
      • The promise of stealing unique buildings and units is a small possible perk, but that is really restricted to certain eras
      • The possibility of stealing wonder production could be pretty great, but only if you are on equal footing with another civ, and competing closely for the same wonders. This would also be very hard to pull off without the use of spies to check on the production of target cities.
      • The main carrot that forces you to use this ability must come in the form of the secondary UA bonus, and the best candidate is adding :c5culture: culture on trade units going into foreign lands.
    • You have to balance the control that internal trade routes would give to your UA vs the raw :c5culture: culture output provided by external routes and the potential diversity presented by stealing other civs' unique build choices.
    Culture for Foreign Units:
    • Tpang likes this part, I like this part. I think we like it for different reasons :p
    • The main problem is that we can talk all day long about making the Philippines inviting for other AI to send their units into, but that AI won't go out of their way.
      • The AI won't just send units in there if they have no reason to go there, and there's no easy way to train the AI on how to identify any special carrot you could possibly invent to give them a reason to be there.
      • A human player will know to actively avoid moving through Philippines, because a player will know that any reason to go there isn't worth giving a competitor hundreds of :c5culture:culture.
      • The 2 units that consistently know to enter foreign territory -- and are worth the cost of empowering an AI enemy tro a human -- are trade units and missionaries.
    • The main problem with missionaries is that unless you design the entire civ around being an adopter of someone else's religion (see JFD's Armenia), the benefits of having your own religion far outweigh the small benefit that having missionaries in your lands for a few turns will give. The numbers are too small.
    • Even opening up the culture to all unit types, the total culture that the Philippines will get from foreign units in their territory will overwhelmingly be from trade units.
      • Maybe this is an argument that opening it up to all enemy units is too small a difference to matter, but IMO it's still going to make this awkward player incentive to avoid an AI Philippines like the plague.
    • On trade units though. THAT'S where this idea works. They are constantly moving in and out, not parking in 1 place, They are always directed towards foreign civs, They follow predictable routes, and they aren't limited to certain eras like missionaries tend to be. Extending this bonus to both Filipino trade units to foreign nations and foreign nations in the Philippines, you give a lot of control over this part of the UA back to the Philippines. If well-placed, you will still get a lot more culture from other trade units than you could ever get from your own trade units, but there's no chance of being completely frozen out from the use of your own UA based on the choices of the AI.
    If the Trade Unit production siphoning is paired with Culture for trade units from BOTH sides, there's a lot of benefits to the design:
    • The Philippines UA becomes a Tight and focused trade civ. No accretion of many disparate components
    • The Foreign culture component tips the scales in favor or focusing on foreign trade, but the UA isn't so imbalanced that it only rewards 1 type of trade route type.
    • Since the Trade Routes all offer some sort of benefit from the UA, the AI can use the UA. If there aren't clear wrong answers then the AI can be more competitive.
     
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  11. Viralvoid

    Viralvoid Warlord

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    I am fine with making the Philippines as a trade-focused Civ and with neglecting more religious flavor for the components. Philippines just became religious after the colonization, everyone knows that. "Coral Church" is a good UC, however, I don't like the idea of the "faith purchase bonus", how about making it more related to trade?
    • The original bonuses of the harbor is fine for trade, but since you're moving Philippines as a more trade-focused civ, increasing the potential of Coral Church might make the Philippines attractive for AI in terms of sending TRs on Filipino cities.
    • Increase gold on trade
    • Increase base faith by 1 or 2
    • Increase trade distance (land and naval)
    • Remove faith purchase bonus
    • Instant faith and tourism when a trade route finishes
    I have no other problems with the other components. I think they were fine, I'm just curious whether the AI knows how to utilize Balangay?
     
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  12. TPangolin

    TPangolin Just the worst person

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    I appreciate the breakdown as to why my proposal doesn't work for VP gameplay and for providing reasons as to why yours would. My main issue as outlined in my post however, is that the original intentionality behind the civ and all CL civs for that matter, is to change a player's approach beyond traditional convention. As you mentioned with your proposal, "The Philippines UA becomes a Tight and focused trade civ" and that is where I believe we contrast the most. The proposal does not change gameplay approaches beyond a more explicit management of trade routes, which in turn provides exclusively passive bonuses for doing what the player does usually. With a pivot to such a narrow focus, any additional representational flavour is lost, and the passive nature of the UA results in me feeling less engaged/excited by its nature.
     
  13. pineappledan

    pineappledan Deity

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    Yes, the AI will use the Balangay's free settler if it starts a turn next to a coast that is at least 5 tiles away from the :c5capital:Capital
    You want the civ to maximize the amount of foreign traffic that comes through Filipino land. :c5culture: from foreign trade units in your land does this. You want to place cities in places that will maximize the amount of trade units that pass through, even if they aren't targeting your cities. If a city placement is maximizing trade traffic it is maximizing normal unit traffic too.

    What taking away the bonus from regular units does is remove a human player's incentive to avoid moving through Philippine territory.
    - The AI will move/not move through the territory regardless of what you do.
    - A human can’t control his/her trade unit’s pathing, so it's the one unit type they can't really stop from wandering through the Philippines
    - A human Philippines player will still have the incentive to maximize AI foot traffic because incentivizing trade traffic looks identical in every meaningful way.
    - You can even game land trade routes to go through your territory by building roads that connect land routes faster through your territory than neutral land.
    - Trade units aren't era-locked and increase gradually throughout the game. Military units can't come in at all until after medieval and missionaries stop coming at all after Renaissance.
    I honestly feel like this is the best balance we can strike between giving a human player incentives as Philippines, while minimizing disincentives while playing against Philippines.
    I disagree, I think it does.

    The incentives to maximize foreign traffic are still fully there if you only give the bonus to trade units. The :c5production:siphoning on TRs gives you the adoption of foreign cultural aspects through trade relations and gives the player several interesting incentives:
    • you want to centralize as many of your trade units into a single origin city that has wide access to 4+ destination cities that are all from the same civ
    • You want to send several trade routes to a single civ at a time, even though you only need 1 to get the :tourism:culture modifier, and probably only 1 or 2 of their cities have high enough :c5production: production to make the 25% impactful
    • You want to use your spies mainly for their ability to look at foreign city production, rather than for doing spy things. This makes diplomats more valuable since they can do that too.
    • If you are trying to maximize :c5culture:culture, you want to sent your TRs to the most distant cities in a single empire, rather than the cities that have the most :c5gold:gold or :c5production:production, and you don't really care whose borders they cross through as long as they aren't yours.
    if an Open borders bonus is added to coral church (see below), all the same incentives that existed in the original mod still exist: get open borders, maximize traffic through your land. You also have addition of a third TR mechanic with The TR incentives. The original Coral Church design didn't offer unique playstyle incentives, and moving the open borders bonus to the coral church doesn’t delay the timing of the open borders bonus from the old UA, so that’s a net gain of 1 unique incentive mechanic while removing a janky way for players to deny AI Philippines the use of their own UA.
    Increasing trade distance, increasing gold on trade, and giving a :tourism: tourism boost on TR completion are things that harbours already do.
    How about this? Parts that are different from a standard Harbor are Underlined
    Spoiler New Coral Church Proposal :

    UB - Coral Church (replaces Harbor):
    available at Civil Service (same tech level as Compass, same tech as open border unlock)
    Can be built anywhere
    350 :c5production: Production Cost

    +2 :c5faith: Faith and +2 :c5gold: Gold
    +1:c5faith: in City for each Civilization that you have given Open Borders to
    +1:c5culture: in City for each Civilization that has granted you Open Borders

    +5% :c5food:Food
    +1 :c5food: Food to Coast and Ocean
    +1 :c5production: Production to Sea Resources
    +200 City HP
    +10% :c5war: Military Supply Cap from :c5citizen: Population
    when a :trade: Sea Trade Route originating here and targeting another Civ is completed, receive a :tourism: Tourism boost with the civ based on your recent :c5culture: Culture output
    :trade: Sea Trade Routes gain +50% Range and +2 :c5gold: Gold​

    If the Coral Churches augment open borders somehow, then you are still incentivizing giving away open borders and getting open borders with other cultures, but you are unlocking that ability at late medieval, the same tech level that open borders unlocks. This way, you don't have a part of the UA that does nothing until medieval.
    The :c5faith: faith for each civ that you have given open borders to reflects the importing of religion into Philippines, and incentivizes you to grant open borders to foreign missionaries.
    The :c5culture: culture for each civ that have given you open borders doubles-down on the movement through foreign lands that the UA already rewards, but not in a way that would harshly disincentivize a human player. Knowing that you are giving away +1:c5culture: in all Filipino cities if you grant them open borders stings a bit, but it could be worth the :tourism:tourism bonus and the boost to AI opinion. But, if Each player is trading Open Borders with Philippines, that's 7:c5faith:7:c5culture: in a standard game, and that's HUGE.
     
    Last edited: Dec 5, 2019
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  14. azum4roll

    azum4roll Prince

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    Doesn't this make the Coral Church stronger with more civs in the map? If you play peacefully every civ is willing to give and accept Open Borders before Industrial.
     
  15. Viralvoid

    Viralvoid Warlord

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    Yay, this is cool.

    I love this new Coral Church - especially the rationalization behind these bonuses. It will no longer push the Philippines to not to found a religion, and the amount of yields is less randomized per game. It is more passive compared to the original UA, which is also fine because the player must actively improve relationship with other civs in order to sign an open border agreement.

    My only concern is, are sure you're going to give more culture to the Philippines through Coral Churches? The UA already gives culture (I don't know the amount though), how about changing it to gold or food?
     
  16. pineappledan

    pineappledan Deity

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    Maybe we cap it at 6-8? Same as God of All Creation?

    I was thinking of chanceries and other buildings that give yields for each CS you have relations with, except this would be a bonus for having positive relations with each Major Civ instead. Those don’t have a cap, but on the other hand they are a bit harder to maintain.
    those would both work. I would vote food, since nothing else in the civ gives gold right now, and I would choose not to add another yield type to their current :c5production::c5culture::c5faith::c5food: spread. I figured :c5culture:gave the ability more consistency with TPang’s original mod.

    since it is :c5culture: for foreign open borders, it’s the opposite of the :c5culture: for foreign units in your land bonus. I would think if it as Filipino citizens graveling to those open border nations and bringing back some culture with them, enhancing the melting pot aspect.
     
    Last edited: Dec 6, 2019
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  17. ixias

    ixias Warlord

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    So just to be clear, are "foreign units" all Military, Civilian, Religious, and Trade Units? Would the culture strictly be based on the number of those units or movement (regarding Trade Units)? Also, I know Barbarians have been mentioned as a source of early culture from being in your land, but aren't you considered to be at war with them?

    Overall, I think @pineappledan's suggestion works better from a gameplay perspective as it would provide a much more consistent experience. Assuming exact same city placement, my experience is that the AI will be more likely to send a trade unit to a city than send a random unit to bumble around your territory. Also, I think it's a little more straightforward for the players and AI to be able to take advantage of. With the above changes to the Coral Church, I think that also gives a solid nod to the original intent of the mod with the Open Borders.

    Either way, I'm really looking forward to this!
    EDIT: Grammar
     
  18. pineappledan

    pineappledan Deity

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    OP updated: Slight changes to the UA:
    Open Borders with foreign civs increases the rate of production progress, up to a max of 35%. This will encourage external trading because internal TRs cap at 25%
    Culture for foreign trade units extended to foreign trade partners (they have to be targeting Philippines or be targeted by a Philippine TR). Philippines' culture for TR's in foreign territory and Foreign TRs in their territory scales with era, but foreign trade partners' Culture does not.

    Coral Church base yields changed to 1:c5faith:1:c5gold:. Open borders bonus caps at 7 and gives 1:c5faith:/:c5gold: for Your/Their open borders. (so base yields on building caps at 8:c5faith:8:c5gold:)
    Moved Balangay to the base mod and Coral Church back to 4UC
     
    Last edited: Dec 14, 2019
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  19. pineappledan

    pineappledan Deity

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    Not sure what to do with the Katipunero. The unit is too early to really benefit from this ideology bonus damage. The concept is bang on, but the game mechanics don't match the timing.
     
  20. ryanmusante

    ryanmusante Regular Supporter

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    This should be one of the civs added to GOLD VP.
     
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