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Insane Amount of Gold

Discussion in 'Community Patch Project' started by Delekhan, Jan 26, 2015.

  1. Delekhan

    Delekhan Prince

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    The Imperialism policy that gives a free factory and a lump sum of gold when conquering a city is way OP and easily exploited.

    I got 40,000+ gold from taking 5 or 6 mid to large size cities... an insane amount.

    And now for the exploit: taking 4 or 5 cities with no walls or anything (maybe just conquered), give them to some minor civ you don't care about, then declare war on them in the same turn. Easily take all of the cities you gave them that turn. Gain 20,000+ gold this way. Rinse, repeat as often as desired.
     
  2. Gazebo

    Gazebo Lord of the Community Patch Supporter

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    Minor civs can't accept cities like that, unless you are using an in-game editor. Major civs won't take cities as gifts like that as well.

    G
     
  3. Delekhan

    Delekhan Prince

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    That's what I'm talking about, a major civ that isn't very strong.

    I haven't had issues trading away cities.

    Also another one: Once you take a city from a weak opponent and they retake it in a turn or two, you can then take it back and get gold each time.
     
  4. Funak

    Funak Deity

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    Easy solution would be just to make the gold you get depend on the population (if it isn't already) for that reason back and forth retaking would be pointless as pop is halved every time.
     
  5. Gazebo

    Gazebo Lord of the Community Patch Supporter

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    It is scaled via pop, yes.
    G
     
  6. Funak

    Funak Deity

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    I never trade cities back and forth so I wouldn't know :D
    But in that case I really don't see the problem, maybe tune the gold down by 20ish percent and it's solved?
     
  7. Delekhan

    Delekhan Prince

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    If I take a 14-20 pop city I get like 3,000 gold. Taking a 25 pop capital yields a whole lot more.

    If you think getting 30,000 gold from taking 5 poorly defended cities is reasonable then I guess leave it as it is.

    And by the way, when I take the cities I can start selling buildings - and each time I sell one it sets off the +50 gold from the Industry opener, so you can imagine the possibilities there.
     
  8. Funak

    Funak Deity

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    You can pretty easily get to around 1k gpt income but lets say 500 gpt instead, capturing a 20 pop city would give you the income for 6 turns, doesn't sound too unreasonable assuming the AI actually defends their cities. And if they don't you should probably bump up difficulty.

    I think the AI having 5 poorly defended 40 pop cities is kinda unreasonable.

    That's a bug.
     
  9. Delekhan

    Delekhan Prince

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    I'm playing on Emperor. And the cities in question are coastal tundra cities living off the insane amount of food that fish tiles give in the Modern era.

    Taking coastal cities is a breeze. I'm moving around with 5 cruisers and 2 destroyers, feeling like a pirate as I plunder city after city and leave it behind burning to the ground. As I write this I have 41,000 gold and I can't spend it fast enough.
     
  10. AbsintheRed

    AbsintheRed Deity

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    I'm with Delekhan here, I also took a note about it in my last game.
    Gold is way to much from city conquest with that policy.
    I don't think even halving it would be too much change here.
     
  11. Delekhan

    Delekhan Prince

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    It's beyond insane. I just stopped playing after I reached 60,000 gold. And I'm not even the top power in the game. It's just too easy - you can lose half your army taking a city or two and still make a HUGE profit. I have 11 cities and have run out of buildings to buy, there's just so much gold coming in - both from the Civilizing Mission policy and from the +50 gold triggering each time I sell a building.

    I'm thinking we need a 50% - 70% cut in the gold from that policy. It's just an instawin once you get it.

    And remember that by the late Industrial/early Modern era it's not hard to be Familiar or Popular with a weak civ or two. It makes it easy to take their cities, lose only a little population from conquest, and just abandon it for them to retake it, and then move in again. One city I retook 2 times and made well over 10,000 gold total without much effort or loss. And that's not even an exploit - after taking cities with the CBP they're usually well into the red, with only 15% HP, so it's easy for the other side to retake it if you pull back a bit.
     
  12. Llednar Twem

    Llednar Twem Prince

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    Honestly, rather than the large cut you're suggesting, I think perhaps it would be more reasonable to make it only work once per city? I imagine that should be possible, since Assyria's UA already works like that. That way you'd still get a large influx of gold with which to buy buildings for an effective basic infrastructure in the captured city, but also couldn't exploit the AI for consistent gains.
     
  13. Funak

    Funak Deity

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    This should ofc be implemented, it working multiple times per city in the first place is just silly, same goes for the culture and the GAP from the honor tree.

    If that is enough however I'm not one hundred percent sure. I need more data on how much GPT people manage to reach in industrial and beyond eras before I can make up my mind on the number. If the numbers are close to what I've seen in some games then the current gold gained is reasonable, the problem is in buildings/soldiers being too cheap by the lategame. If however my situations were special cases, then the numbers need to go down to stay in line with the purchasecosts.
    One thing is clear however, and that is that either the policy or the purchase-prices are out of control.
     
  14. MayNilad Man

    MayNilad Man King

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    hum, if we boost purchase prices, won't that make civs like Venice (or maybe only Venice) have a harder time managing their empire?
     
  15. Funak

    Funak Deity

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    Traderoutes are really powerful :D. Also again I'm not saying how much they need to be nerfed as I haven't played enough games lategame to see how high your income gets. But a 500 gold factory feels kinda cheap eitherway. As I've reached numbers like 1k gpt with emperies with questionable economics.(and venice have double the traderoutes on top of that)
     
  16. Llednar Twem

    Llednar Twem Prince

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    The thing is, the amount of gold kind of needs to be large in order to be effective. Consider how much you're going to want to have straight off in a new city. The cost adds up fast:

    A courthouse to remove the annex penalty.
    A garrison to trigger the might policy and reduce disorder.
    A harbor (he said he was targeting coastal) to remove isolation.
    A worker and some work boats, since the AI seems to leave a lot of tiles unimproved.

    He mentioned getting 3000. The above takes a big chunk of that already. And that's before actually getting buildings to reduce other sources of unhappiness or improve the city's effectiveness.
     
  17. Delekhan

    Delekhan Prince

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    Most of the time I don't even care to keep the city, it's profitable to go on a scorched earth campaign and take cities, raze them, and sell as many buildings as possible.

    With the gold/culture/golden age points gained I can afford to take big losses and make an easy, and impressive profit.

    Also Askia took about 7 cities, including the Egyptian capital. Through Info Addict I see he has 14,000 gold and he's spending like a fiend. There are so many units in his vast territory you can't even see the terrain anymore. So he's buying units like mad and still ending up with a 10,000+ gold reserve. Even conquering AI's can't spend their conquest gold fast enough.

    We can fix this by reducing the gold gained by at least 50%, and arranging it so it only triggers once per city, or once per city per era, or something reasonable like that. And of course fix the extra 50 gold from Industry triggering every time we sell a building, unless that effect is intended.

    And for Funak: in the early Modern Era I'm making 300 GPT. I'm #2 in the game and have pretty impressive cities, but no merchant specialists whatsoever. I have maxed out my 8 trade routes. When you consider that my fleet can take 4 coastal cities in 10 turns easily enough, that amounts to a crazy payday in gold, culture, and GAP, especially if I leave a destroyer behind to move in when the AI retakes the city for a double whammy (happens most of the time). From my calculations that quick run of conquest provides an entire era's worth of gold and half an era's worth of culture from the Might policy.
     
  18. Llednar Twem

    Llednar Twem Prince

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    Hmm...maybe it should give less gold but more free buildings then? I imagine the idea behind a policy called "civilizing missions" is that you're SUPPOSED to be improving the captured city, not burning it to the ground and taking the gold. As has been mentioned, the ability to trigger the Industry opener from selling buildings is a known bug.
     
  19. Funak

    Funak Deity

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    Like I said something needs to change, but I'm not sure if that's just the policy, just the purchase-costs on mid to late game units/buildings or a combination of both.

    You can choose not to exploit that until it's fixed youknow :D

    That's a bit lower than the numbers I've seen, but I still need more data.
     
  20. Funak

    Funak Deity

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    If possible I'd like to see the gold gained being based on the value of the buildings razed, but that would probably require new code, something that Gazebo doesn't seem to want :D. If it is even possible.
    It would make sense considering you probably plunder the infrastructure of the city, and if the city doesn't have an infrastructure you don't have anything to plunder.
     

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