Integration with Hex Conquer?

[Martiquin]

Am I the only guy that finds playing VP without this mod impossible? I always play with 5 tile borders on marathon and without this mod I'd lose a lot of enjoyment of civ 5. Borders should be fluid and move beyond just city capture. It pisses me off to no end when some neighboring civ takes a tile I want and the only thing I can do to get it is to raze his city or place a citadel. It also makes the civs around you feel more alive with borders changing with each war. How do you guys think about integrating this mod into VP? Honestly I'm just kind of sad this mod isnt something built in VP and each update to VP seems to make this mod a little more unstable.

 

[Mwalls]

I like this, how has it developed during the past 4 years though? I think the occupation should take several turns during which the units can't do anything. The feature is good with the upcoming supply rework too.

 

[hokath]

I have never tried this one because it sounded a bit too crazy, but perhaps I was being squemish!
It looks like we currently don't have a good version though?

Note that, if you want to, you can propose things are integrated into VP at a congress session.
Now, a change this big would (in my opinion) require a supermajority, but even if it fails the first time, it's always good for discussion and visibility.

 

[caudheur]

I love Hex Conquer too, I feel it adds a layer to the game while still being in line with the gameplay philosophy. Plus it makes so much sense that you should be able to use military to steal undefended territory. I would support a merge with VP (maybe as a checkbox option when starting a new game?)

 

[azum4roll]

It makes the game way too easy IMO.

 

[FinMc]

It makes the game way too easy IMO.

It makes offense as a human significantly easier.

I usually end up "firewalling" the border during a war by making all the border areas unclaimed territory with IGE because otherwise it makes pushing (roads, healing, faster siege movement) way too easy.

I do love how it makes AI better at offensive wars though, so I keep it on.

 

[Tekamthi]

i think we'd need some updates to AI to make it truly compatible. There is a rare CTD with the modmod i've worked on, have yet to resolve...

in some ways its a good candidate, in that its truly a community effort, more than most modmods. But as much as i love it, I think we'd also want to refine and perfect the mechanism & get major dev buy-in to redo the AI. Still i think a well-adapted AI would be more competitive with this mechanism than it is currently, there would be more objectives to be had, human less able to predict their next move etc.

 

[trinket]

I use this as often as 3/4UC, but it still has some incompatibility with VP imo.
#1 is the occasional crash whenever you are about to finish razing certain cities, I don't know the specific conditions but it probably has something to do with calculating who owns the razed city's tiles.
#2 is border calculation. once I had Venice naturally expand to a resource 4 tiles away, only for said tile to flip to a vassal's city closer to it.
#3 would be balance with a lot of VP mechanics; for example, mid-war border flipping weakens abilities like Defender of the Faith and Himeji while buffing Goddess of Protection and American UA.

Still use it though, it actually makes minor landgrab wars viable.

 

[Tekamthi]

is the occasional crash whenever you are about to finish razing certain cities, I don't know the specific conditions but it probably has something to do with calculating who owns the razed city's tiles.

i have a speculative fix in mind for this part -- tbh i think this crash actually originates within the dll, and the modmod just creates a scenario the dll is not equipped to handle in rare instances. One way or another this should be fixable, will try some modmod-oriented solutions at the very least

#2 is border calculation. once I had Venice naturally expand to a resource 4 tiles away, only for said tile to flip to a vassal's city closer to it.
#3 would be balance with a lot of VP mechanics; for example, mid-war border flipping weakens abilities like Defender of the Faith and Himeji while buffing Goddess of Protection and American UA.

these can be adjusted but we'd need some thoughtful theorycrafting with specifics to workaround this within the confines of the modmod -- imo we fix up the modmod and THEN look to integration, maybe... rather than asking devs to immediately start fixing major bugs.

One thought I've had for balance is to auto-pillage improvements/roads as the tile flips sides -- AI will often pillage the tile only for it to flip the next turn; an auto-pillage for all flips will bring parity and limit human ability to extend roads very rapidly.

gaia made some updates to the logic in her version, would be nice if we could track down a copy of the last standalone gaia release before they integrated w/ sapiens

 

[azum4roll]

With this mod, you can also completely neutralize an AI without any downsize, by reducing their territory to just the first ring of each city. Zero diplomatic/tech/policy/tourism penalty that way, and the AI is basically irrelevant.

 

[trinket]

i have a speculative fix in mind for this part -- tbh i think this crash actually originates within the dll, and the modmod just creates a scenario the dll is not equipped to handle in rare instances. One way or another this should be fixable, will try some modmod-oriented solutions at the very least

yeah
I checked the main thread out shortly after posting and turns out everything was already being looked into, cheers to that!

 

[Tekamthi]

reducing their territory to just the first ring of each city. Zero diplomatic/tech/policy/tourism penalty that way, and the AI is basically irrelevant.

agreed -- seems achievable that a small warmonger or other penalty could be attached to each tile flip, but idk this can be done via modmod. Its been a while since i've taken a deep dive through api; anyone aware of any lua-exposed options here?

 

[axatin]

i have a speculative fix in mind for this part -- tbh i think this crash actually originates within the dll, and the modmod just creates a scenario the dll is not equipped to handle in rare instances. One way or another this should be fixable, will try some modmod-oriented solutions at the very least

As far as I see the mod does nothing but call CvPlot::SetOwner in the dll, that shouldn't cause any crashes. If you have a savegame with a crash you can report it on github.

 

[Tekamthi]

As far as I see the mod does nothing but call CvPlot::SetOwner in the dll, that shouldn't cause any crashes. If you have a savegame with a crash you can report it on github.

I cannot reproduce any of the crashes, nor can anyone outside of 2 or 3 that have reported it in the modmod thread over the years -- its something to do with reassigning tiles from one city to another that only happens once in a while. I suspect it's actually related to the game running out of memory. In any case, tile reassignment likely creates some very rare fatal collisions with other processes that are not directly related.

I believe there are logs available etc., in the other thread; I'll take a look at opening an issue on git if there's enough there, so we can maybe get to the bottom of this. Once that gets solved, we still have balance issues to resolve.

3uc/4uc had a main dev and a team of contributors making near-monthly updates to it for years, and thus got into shape for integration. Hex conquer may be equally loved but it has not received the same attention