Intellectual Problem I have with Democracy -vs- Republic

[Stuka]

I'll admit to this difficulty being PETTY...

The United States is, and especially since 1776, has ALWAYS been, a REPRESENTATIVE REPUBLIC.

Period.

The very meaning of Democracy means simply, "Majority Rule". The worst example is three lions and one sheep deciding what's for dinner.

If I designed the game, I'd probably have: (In order of happiness/productivity)

Anarchy
Despotism
Monarchy
Facism
Communism
Socialism
Republic

"Democracy" has that cute little ring to it as being the end-all-be-all of governmental aims, but it's actually closer to anarchy...

That is... Intellectually.

My $0.02.

 

[Sixchan]

Does this mean that Civ3 is so good you've got to whine about really small errors?

 

[Stuka]

Originally posted by Sixchan
Does this mean that Civ3 is so good you've got to whine about really small errors?

I don't even consider this an ERROR. Civ3 has it's bugs still. It's just a side-gripe I gots.

And just because you disagree on the importance, doesn't mean I'm WHINING. It's simply that YOUR priorities differ from mine.

So... As I see it, you're WHINING about my post.

No malice intended kiddo.

<salutes>

 

[Sixchan]

Okay, fine, I meant complain.

But don't call me kiddo. You do not know my age, and if you were going on time spent here, I'm almost 9 months your senior!

 

[Zachriel]

Originally posted by Stuka
I'll admit to this difficulty being PETTY...

The United States is, and especially since 1776, has ALWAYS been, a REPRESENTATIVE REPUBLIC.

Period.

The very meaning of Democracy means simply, "Majority Rule". The worst example is three lions and one sheep deciding what's for dinner.

This is more of a semantic problem, than a philosophical one. You have defined democracy as simple majoritarianism, also known as "pure democracy." Using this definition, then there is no democratic society anywhere in the world -- nor should there be.

Most people do not use the word this way, but use it for most any modern system of government where representatives and the executive political leader are selected by the popular will. Most countries are now democracies by this definition. Republic is usually used synonymously, but when a distinction is made, it usually refers to a less mature system where suffrage is not universal.

The distinction made by Stuka is common in my country and is usually made by right-wing political groups. On its face, they are reminding us that there is a limit to government , but personally, it reminds me of the "state's rights" views of the Jim Crow era .

MERRIAM-WEBSTER
Democracy, a government in which the supreme power is vested in the people and exercised by them directly or indirectly through a system of representation usually involving periodically held free elections.

Republic, a government in which supreme power resides in a body of citizens entitled to vote and is exercised by elected officers and representatives responsible to them and governing according to law.

 

[Stuka]

Originally posted by Sixchan
Okay, fine, I meant complain.

But don't call me kiddo. You do not know my age, and if you were going on time spent here, I'm almost 9 months your senior!

Then how old ART thou? I'll give you mine if you present yours. (I'm guessing you're 25)

 

[Zouave]

Nothing like a thread full of puerile insults.


The U.S. is a Democracy - a representative Democracy meaning it is a Republican form of government.

The Republic in the game likely is modeled more on the old Roman republic, or the early Swiss versions, which had less democracy, but plenty of "representative" rule - by an ELITE.

Maybe the U.S. is also run by an elite, but at least we all get to vote, and half of us do, and the rest are left choosing between tweedle-dum and tweedle-dee.


It is all a minor semantical difference. Worry about the EFFECTS each form has on the game, while I work on moding in Fundamentalism.

 

[Demetrias]

My only problem is order. They finally smoothed over most of the time conflicts with tech but this one glitch remains. Democracy was invented first. Athens was a functioning democracy long before anyone came up with the republican form of government.(I think it was Plato not sure.) Second they are both bronze age government forms so why can't we get them sooner.

P.S. The U.S. is a Federal Republic. We do not get to vote on President that is done by and Elite group of Electors in Washington we just vote our recommendations. Only a few decades ago did we first get to vote on Senators. The gov. elects judges with out any input by us. (A Good Thing.) I am not sure exactly how the States do it though. Their seperate thats why its federal. Also we could arguebly be called a Democratic Republic for our mixed voting system.

 

[Damien]

To my mind,switzerland has always been the only real democracy in the world.IMO,a real democracy is a country in which the people can decide of anything(finance,treaties,laws etc).
A republic is when only an elected minority is entitled to decide n the others to sh*t up.
And Zouave,where have you seen the first swiss sytems were ruled by an elite?
In the 13th century,everyone was entitled to vote on many issues in Landsgemeinden(general assemblies).It continued with time.However,aristocracy had taken power in a few cantons in the 17th n 18th century but it was still more democratic than in the other countries.In 1848,the whole switzerland was fully democratic.Nowadays,people still have a counter-power by having the ability to launch referendums n counter-votes.

 

[costanza]

Not my intention to go completely crazy with all this, but.....

You could make a case for the US being either a republic or a democracy. You are represented. And none of this Federal republic stuff either. Did anyone read about the Civil War? We used to be "These United States" and secession was a legal act. That of course was muddled after that and now we have a big, bloated federal government that we curse and fear.

The truth still is that the power lies with the states. If our representatives wanted (if WE voted in those that would do so), they could completely dissolve the federal government. OR, they could re-write legislation to give themselves more power. And if they wanted, they could remove the electoral college and let each vote (not ballot, Sorry Florida) be counted for our Executive Chief.

Of course you run into the problems that our Judicial branch (appointed by the Executive and approved by the Legislative) finds those acts unconstitutional. It's fully within the framework set up. Take your pick, democracy or republic.

I don't know how it works in other countries, even some states don't follow the same system.

Now, this ties into Civ3 in that the Republic is credited to ancient greece, more closely Plato. And since the US views itself (and others view us) as the world darlings of freedom and rights, we take credit for democracy. We tie our Superpower status to that, which does correlate; I'm not claiming it doesn't. The game is marketed mainly for the US. That's why you find Republic early in the game and you get Democracy later with all the extra production (and war weariness) and all that.

 

[Stuka]

Originally posted by costanza
Not my intention to go completely crazy with all this, but.....

You could make a case for the US being either a republic or a democracy. You are represented. And none of this Federal republic stuff either. Did anyone read about the Civil War? We used to be "These United States" and secession was a legal act. That of course was muddled after that and now we have a big, bloated federal government that we curse and fear.

The truth still is that the power lies with the states. If our representatives wanted (if WE voted in those that would do so), they could completely dissolve the federal government. OR, they could re-write legislation to give themselves more power. And if they wanted, they could remove the electoral college and let each vote (not ballot, Sorry Florida) be counted for our Executive Chief.

Of course you run into the problems that our Judicial branch (appointed by the Executive and approved by the Legislative) finds those acts unconstitutional. It's fully within the framework set up. Take your pick, democracy or republic.

I don't know how it works in other countries, even some states don't follow the same system.

Now, this ties into Civ3 in that the Republic is credited to ancient greece, more closely Plato. And since the US views itself (and others view us) as the world darlings of freedom and rights, we take credit for democracy. We tie our Superpower status to that, which does correlate; I'm not claiming it doesn't. The game is marketed mainly for the US. That's why you find Republic early in the game and you get Democracy later with all the extra production (and war weariness) and all that.

And that having been said, we unfortunately have a JUDICIARY that LEGISLATES.

Oh well, it COULD be worse...

I didn't mean to start something so un-civ-related guys.

 

[costanza]

Yes, it could be worse. We just have to take a look around to see that.

 

[Colonel Kraken]

costanza and stuka, I think you and I would get along splendidly on our views of government.



By the way, costanza, were you a big fan of Seinfeld? Me too . . .

 

[Left Foot]

Here's something that I find funny.

In Greek, we only have one word for both republic and democracy.
It's democracy.

We translate both english (and french, german, etc...) words with the same one in greek.

That makes for some amusing situations when transalting the name of some decidedly undemocratic countries.

For example, the former East Germany's formal name was the Democratic Rebuplic of Germany.
When translated in Greek, it became: The Democratic Democracy of Germany. Not very subtle, you might argue.

It's a bit off topic but I always found this amusing.

 

[FrosTi]

Originally posted by Stuka
I'll admit to this difficulty being PETTY...

The United States is, and especially since 1776, has ALWAYS been, a REPRESENTATIVE REPUBLIC.

Period.

The very meaning of Democracy means simply, "Majority Rule". The worst example is three lions and one sheep deciding what's for dinner.

If I designed the game, I'd probably have: (In order of happiness/productivity)

Anarchy
Despotism
Monarchy
Facism
Communism
Socialism
Republic

"Democracy" has that cute little ring to it as being the end-all-be-all of governmental aims, but it's actually closer to anarchy...

That is... Intellectually.

My $0.02.

The Republic in Civ3 is more for Ancient Ages and Middle-Ages republics... The name doesn't match indeed (it should be called "Greco-Roman Republic" or something like that)
Americans are a Democracy but they just call it "Republic", but it doesn't matter cuz they really are a democracy.

"Communism" in the game should be renamed "Socialism" (Communism never really existed, except maybe a "primitive" form of it for the Iroquois), and what you mean by "Socialism", it's simply called: "Social Democracy" (Canada, Sweden, Belgium, etc.) and have nothing to do with socialism like we've seen in USSR

FrosTi

 

[FrosTi]

Originally posted by Damien
To my mind,switzerland has always been the only real democracy in the world.IMO,a real democracy is a country in which the people can decide of anything(finance,treaties,laws etc).
A republic is when only an elected minority is entitled to decide n the others to sh*t up.
And Zouave,where have you seen the first swiss sytems were ruled by an elite?
In the 13th century,everyone was entitled to vote on many issues in Landsgemeinden(general assemblies).It continued with time.However,aristocracy had taken power in a few cantons in the 17th n 18th century but it was still more democratic than in the other countries.In 1848,the whole switzerland was fully democratic.Nowadays,people still have a counter-power by having the ability to launch referendums n counter-votes.

democratic for men at least

 

[Ozymandias]

Given confiusing semantics re: "Republic" and "Democracy", I suggest the following -- which echoes historical development and accommodates every era:

1. A Republic is a political system wherein (typically) only property owning males of the dominant ethnic group are allowed "equal" representation -- both ancient Athens and the Ante-Bellum South fit this structural description nicely. The USA was founded as a Republic.

2. A Democracy represents universal enfranchisement -- all mentally competent adults get to vote regardless of gender or ethnicity.

Democracy represents a considerable economic boost; witness Axis analyses of American productive capacity being completely thrown off by countless Rosie The Riveters.

Yet further note that the emphasis on property ownership in a Republic tends to lend these societies a commercial/mercantile emphasis, be it the ancient Greek Thalassocracies or later cotton-dependent states. THEIR WAR WEARINESS SHOULD ACTUALLY BE HIGHER THAN A DEMOCRACY'S, although they are arguably -- potentially -- more economically efficient, as none of these states (to the best of my knowledge) ever developed significant social welfare programs -- and, no, "Bread & Circuses" doesn't count.

Best,

Oz

 

[Sixchan]

Isn't what you describe as a republic an Oligachry? (sp?)

As to my age, I will use my little saying:

Unless you're young, single, live in Glasgow and are offering me a date, then you have no business knowing!

 

[amadeus]

How could you say people were happy under a Communist government? I don't think the people in Tianamen Square were very happy. Maybe you should take a visit to Pyongyang and see how happy those people are -- if you take a picture of something that the government doesn't approve, they'll take your camera, if you leave the hotel without a government supervisor, you could be shot or imprisoned...probably both.

 

[Stuka]

Originally posted by rmsharpe
How could you say people were happy under a Communist government? I don't think the people in Tianamen Square were very happy. Maybe you should take a visit to Pyongyang and see how happy those people are -- if you take a picture of something that the government doesn't approve, they'll take your camera, if you leave the hotel without a government supervisor, you could be shot or imprisoned...probably both.

They have everything they need. They don't go hungry. They can hold hands and sing the praises of their all-knowing, all-feeling, all-omnipotent commie government. They sing songs about victories over "imperialist capitalists" and how someday they'll be brought to "justice".



My friend went on a mission trip in China and when the local "gestapo" put a gun to his head and asked him, "Where are your politics!" He shivered and squeaked, "I don't have any opinion on that!" and the "policeman" hit him in the jaw with the butt of his AK47 and said, "Having no opinion is as bad as being REACTIONARY!!!"

He was imprisoned for two years.

Yay! All hail CHINA!

J/K