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Interesting Civilization Discriptions...

Discussion in 'Civ5 - General Discussions' started by Mangas, Oct 13, 2010.

  1. tom2050

    tom2050 Deity

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    No, you should research the topics yourself, look at all sides, and come to a proper conclusion through research (not saying you should do some official research project). But, if you had to ask a question like that, I guess some people will just continue to believe everything someone feeds them. Therefore, I will feed you this below.

    ------ Continuation of the difference of America and Europe from here.

    Perry underlines the point by comparing European countries with American states. "Although [the] Netherlands, Sweden, and Denmark are among Europe's wealthiest countries, as U.S. states they would be between 14.5 percent and 18 percent below the U.S. average.... If France became a U.S. state, it would rank No. 48 out of 51 by per capita [gross domestic product], just barely ahead of America's two poorest states, West Virginia and Mississippi.... Belgium, Finland, Britain, Germany, and Spain would rank in the bottom 20 percent of U.S. states by per capita GDP, just barely ahead of Arkansas but below Kentucky."

    .....

    Put it this way: If America's living standards suddenly descended to Europe's, rather than the other way round, it would be a calamity that would make the country's present economic difficulties look trivial.

    And yet, as I say, higher U.S. productivity is not the main reason for this prosperity gap. Comparing America with the richest European countries, output per hour worked is not that different. In levels of productivity, Europe's most successful economies have caught up. Then why are they still so much poorer? Because Europeans work less. A higher proportion of the U.S. population is employed, and Americans work longer hours. Effort, not efficiency, is why Americans are richer.
     
  2. tom2050

    tom2050 Deity

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    Do you know anything about the world outside the <enter where you live here>? I was speaking about the US above, not <enter your country here>.

    But from reading your quote below, it seems that you do not.

    Read this, a randomly picked google article... and you can perhaps learn something about how the whole thing happened.

    And you make a good point, corrupt scientists trying to fulfill political agendas constantly skew scientific data and make up things like 'global cooling, global dimming, and global warming' without 'actual' proof to try to meet their ends. Even within the past 30 odd years. Thanks taillesskangaru!
     
  3. Reginleif

    Reginleif Warlord

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    Even if some scientists were screwing with data, that vast majority of climatologists agree that it is taking place. Yes people did claim that an Ice Age would take place, but as more information was discovered, proffessionals changed their veiws (Although some places like Europe will get cooler). That's just how science works, it may change but only when there is evedence that objects to this. This is a good thing.

    I must also point out you sound very conspiratorial about the whole international re-distribution of wealth thing. The way science works this sort of conspiracy can't really take place as scientists are rewarded for challenging established concepts. If you think about it, what famous scientist has ever become a household name by conforming? True people may use a scientific claim for political advantages, but that doesn't make science any less true.
     
  4. tom2050

    tom2050 Deity

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    Conspiracy theory? So you turn a blind eye to world events?

    The progressives (along with the self-proclaimed Communists, Marxists, and Democratic Socialists that go along with the progressives) that control Washington D.C. have said during this administration many many times that Re-distribution of wealth is what they want to do. It's no secret. Cap-and-trade is a way to do that, which goes along with the 'skewed data' of global warming. The reason it failed was probably partially due to the falsified information from the ones claiming global warming.

    1 quick example: US can't drill for oil in Gulf, but we gave billions of $ to Brazil and Mexico to drill oil in the Gulf.. this is an example of global re-distribution. Progressive has said something like: They want to lower the means of the US purposely to match the rest of the world.

    Evidence also shows the Earth has been cooling. If a political party or individual says global re-distribution and global governance/govt is what they want to achieve to the public, and it happens on many many occasions (recently)... there is no longer a way for you to justify conspiracy theories (do you claim conspiracy theory because you have no other way to defend that the Earth trend is not warming through actual data because of pollution).
     
  5. Tee Kay

    Tee Kay Justice guaranteed

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    Right, because GDP per capita is everything. We are talking about standard of living, which is related but different.

    On the HDI the United States ranked 13th, behind nine European countries. Similarly, in Quality of Life the United States ranked 13th behind 10 European countries. For the Gini Coefficient (which measures income equality) the United States fares worse than Cote d'Ivoire and worse than any European country. In child-wellbeing the United States is worse than any Western European state except for the United Kingdom.

    Declined... calamity... I love it, you're making it sound like Europe is Ethiopia or something.

    Refer to Reginleif's post. I'm too lazy to argue with a wall.
     
  6. Tee Kay

    Tee Kay Justice guaranteed

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    Right. I'm just going to stop right here. You obviously know nothing. Have a good day.
     
  7. tom2050

    tom2050 Deity

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    If you are too lazy to argue with yourself, we all understand.
     
  8. tom2050

    tom2050 Deity

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    Again, ignoring what the progressives themselves have stated to the public.. I am not making this stuff up, you can look it up on Youtube and watch videos.

    In fact, it is you, taillesskangaru, who ignore facts and instead embrace non-truth.

    Of course, countries that embrace a more socialistic society, will be more likely to pay everyone a higher or more similar wage to some extent (even if the wage is too high to the point that money is lost). A free market means that you have the option to succeed or fail. Your hard work can determine your future. Therefore, the difference in wage is likely to be more dramatic. Doctors will make a lot more than say a 16 year old cart-pusher. Yet, the average US income is still higher... go figures.

    And look at what happened to Greece. Germany is bailing other countries out. Oh wait, could entitlements and income equality (the supposed right to earn high income) have something to do with that?

    Yea, boring topic though... I'm out also.. see you all!
     
  9. Reginleif

    Reginleif Warlord

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    I was going to bring this up in my first post, but do you watch Glen Beck and the like? Progressives do not run the White House and they have virtually no power in this administration. I suggest you read or listen to some actual progressive media like the Young Turks (on youtube) or Huffington Post, progessives are furous at Barrack Obama for offering a healthcare bill without a public option, a finacail reform bill that will lead to another depression, and continueing useless wars and military spending.
    It is not Progressives who run D.C. but the banks and industry who bribe politicains for tax-cuts, and fewer regulations so they can increase their wallets while the world economy implodes. If you read or hear any progresive media you will discover that Obama is certainly not one.
    BTW progressives do not hate America, even if you heard/read someone who did, you shouldn't assume they repersent an entire people.
     
  10. tom2050

    tom2050 Deity

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    They are mostly liberal academia type, or progressive that make up the entire democratic party. Much smaller is the centrist and conservative democrats. For instance, Hillary Clinton is a progressive as well as many other you may not even know about, Obama is definitely far left and by his action shows progressivism, and wants single payer (so did Clinton), but even with both houses under democratic control, could not get that through Congress. Dems vs Dems. And they try to blame the party that has no power anywhere. :lol:

    EDIT: Just as a note, I'm not some far-right crazy. I'm not a far-left crazy either. Balanced Power is far superior in every aspect than 1-sided rule. Those who want only 1 party power to pass things that are not good for a country will come to regret that when and if the other party takes complete power. It is just the way it goes.

    Anyways, this is off topic, back to interesting civilization discriptions.
     
  11. TheDanish

    TheDanish Prince

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    Not only do those who were skewing data only represent a small portion of climatologists who agree that climate change is happening, but also there was at least one major case in Britain where a group of climatologists accused of this very transgression were investigated and found to have not skewed data. So you see, not all the accusations became real issues.
     
  12. tom2050

    tom2050 Deity

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    Reality:

    Five hundred million years ago carbon dioxide was 20 times more prevalent than today, decreasing to 4-5 times during the Jurassic period and then slowly declining with a particularly swift reduction occurring 49 million years ago. Human activities such as the combustion of fossil fuels and deforestation have caused the atmospheric concentration of carbon dioxide to increase by about 35% since the beginning of the age of industrialization.
     
  13. Tee Kay

    Tee Kay Justice guaranteed

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    Um... carbon dioxide is scientifically proven to be a greenhouse gas ie it traps heat in the atmosphere. The reason Earth is habitable in the first place is due to greenhouse gases causing global warming and stabilizing Earth's temperature at a "reasonable" range.
     
  14. tom2050

    tom2050 Deity

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    Well, provide some proof.

    Here's some insight.

    Furthermore, if those saying these things really wanted to improve the planet, they would be pushing for things like increased re-forestation. Instead they push for things that deal with developed countries being forced to give money to certain other countries, while not dealing with the 'supposed actual problem'.

    This should raise red flags since in the end, the problem remains, and the only effect is certain peoples taking other peoples money.
     
  15. Tee Kay

    Tee Kay Justice guaranteed

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    Ah, water vapor. I can provide links too.

    Anyway, let's take this discussion elsewhere. We're derailing this thread.
     
  16. ori

    ori Repair Guy Super Moderator

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    Moderator Action: Good idea - some of the Collosseum subforums like Science or Offtopic are just around the corner
     
  17. falconne

    falconne meep

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    The same income in many Western European countries will buy you a better lifestyle than in the US. Better infrastructure, education, healthcare, food, environment, etc... stuff that brings you "quality of life". It's the Human Development Index you have to look at.

    Besides, the GDP per capita is not all it seems; the US has a large skew in the distribution of wealth, for a western country. The top 1% own a huge portion of the country's wealth. The top 10% own about 80% of the total wealth. Most of the world's richest people live in the US and lift the per capita average up. The richest may be living it up, but if you compare the lifestyle of the majority to that of continental Europe, it's a different story.

    Even going by pure averages, an extra 15% income won't buy you the benefits that only economies of scale provide you, such as better infrastructure.
     
  18. Doctor Phibes

    Doctor Phibes Prince

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    You know, what really strikes me about a discussion like this is how few people think in terms of a multipolar world. This is a legacy of the cold war, of course - two superpowers followed by one hyperpower. So China always has to be the next superpower (or hyperpower), certain nations or groups of nations are declared to be in terminal decline at the drop of a hat (or a bump in a GDP graph). Etc etc.

    But this has rarely been the normal state of things throughout history. Late Victorians would easily a recognise a world with a large number of powers, great and lesser. The main resonance the 'superpower' idea would have had for them would be the UK's mastery of the seas and its vast economic power. But the UK, at its height, could not dictate events globally in the way that we now expect a superpower to behave. I simply think the concept may have to be discarded as obsolete.

    And perhaps this is yet another thing that irritates me about Civ5. Economic/Cultural/Tech Victory should be, if anything, more satisfying in a multipolar world. (The economic victory in particular is silly, of course, just a matter of bribing CSs. In fact, it should partly be aided by diplomacy and trade between the major powers, not just the CSs, but diplomacy is broken and trade is pretty simple-minded.)

    Instead, if there is any meagre fun to be had from the game, it is in a Domination victory, which railroads us right back into the world of superpowers...
     
  19. zuraffo

    zuraffo Warlord

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    ~1500 chinese characters worth of literacy is good enough for reading newspapers and most industrial instruction manual.

    Oh china will never be a "modern" (western) superpower. Never has any western superpower need to manage so vast a population in so crammed a place. China's path will likely be fundamentally different from the western's path. They are trying to urbanize, true, but the percentage of rural settlement will likely remain large if for no other reason than there's only so much space available in china.

    And China is very unlikely to become a "superpower" as a westerner would recognize; it will probably be an economic powerhouse, but beyond securing space for its growth, it is unlikely that china will pursue a global hegemony: it simply isn't in its cultural gene. China has always been, and will continue to be, an inward looking civilization.

    However, the world will need to deal with an increasing flow of chinese emigrants though. maybe that's their world domination plan ;).
     
  20. zuraffo

    zuraffo Warlord

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    That is a myth. If you multiply territory held with the duration (which should be a good indicator of the effectiveness of governance), you should get a clearer picture.

    It's hard to make the paradigm shift from a eurocentric view of the world to one that is more universal, and many among the western civilizations might never attain that, but do make the effort before the great civilizations that had once contributed so much to humanity were rendered inconsequential in the coming ages, a deeply held fear in the bossom of many "westerners" I supposed.

    Funny it was the americans who started the process of globalization.
     

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