interesting civs excluded

[jon78]

I suspect that the civ-team have collected the existing civs in order to stabilize the game if playing on earthlike-maps. however, as there still are too many civs on the european continent I wouldn't mind bringing in some more.

spain/portugal => hiberians

spain and portugal together remains one of the most important roles in european history. without having this faction robbing and stealing and trickying the chinese, europe wouldn't have much military power at all.


arabs

what would europe have been without the arabs? nothing for sure. what would the world look like without the arabs? who knows. the arabs invented most of the stuff that we think as typical european technologies: bridging, medicine, navigation, steel (yes, they knew the secret of the steel, one thousand years before the europeans did) etc.
the arabs has an obvious spot in my civ-game.


mongols

the removal of the most magnificent military power in the world is totally irrational. kubilai kahn rode from vladivostok at the pacific to gdansk in the baltic in lesser than 4 weeks (correct me if I'm wrong) to inspect his realm. that's impressive.


kambodia

ankor vat was one of the most important centers of the far eastern hemisphere during almost 1000 years.


polynesians / maoi

now why have nobody ever mentioned the biggest civilisation ever? from new zealand to hawaii to easter island to the fillipines. there is definately space for the maois.


ethiopia

I am not very literate when it comes to african civs but both ethiopia and nigeria are important and interesting areas on the african continent. they should have done some more work here, right?


mayans and the incas

very technologically advanced cultures in the americas. the mayans even had the capacity to estimate the age of the universe. very impressive.


vikings

probably the most important political factor in northern europe after the fall of western rome. the vikings explored both russia and northern america and captured the mightiest city in the western world at the time, constantinopel, not once but TWICE. the vikings came as far as baghdad, sarmarkand, alexandria and cape cod.

 

[NY Hoya]

Agreed on some points...Spanish or Hiberians definitely belong, I'd say just Spanish; Portugal is a different country with a unique culture....

Hmmm, arabs are already in there with Egyptians/Babs/Persians. Yes, all of these were the ancient predecessors to the arabs, but i can think of several civs more worthy than the "arab" civ. BTW, the Babs were the civ that gave us most of the things you credit the "Arabs" with.

Mongols: absolutely belong

well, Kambodia may have been a very important eastern civ, i just don't know. Probably as impt as persians/zulu/iroquois, why not include them? Probably because they were completely insignificant to western civs, but i really don't know

Polynesians/Maoi: yeah, they spread everywhere over the pacific, but pretty irrelevant in the bigger picture

Hmmm, well, Ethiopia and Nigeria are both largely constructs of the European powers, not real civs. Similar to the US except that the US is the most powerful country by far in todays world....

Maya and Inca civs: definitely prefer them over the Aztecs and Iroquois, more developed, both bigger obstacles to Euro dfominance of the American continents

Vikings: i loved them in previous civs, please bring them back


uhhhhm ok just use the editor, it isn't hard. I can do it and i suck with computers....

 

[jon78]

yes of course. I just need to deepen myself in some other cultures first. special units for cambodians, maois, incas, mayas etc.

 

[macaskil]

Ethiopia can be considered a successor to the Nubians who were the main rivals of the ancient Egyptians. Ethiopia converted to Christianity early on and an independent Ethiopian state has been in existence for 2,000 years with only a brief Italian occupation in the 1930s.

Some civs mentioned never got very far with technology, and did not found cities which is the generally accepted mark of a civilization. There is no Polynesian or Mongol equivalent of Macchu Picchu or Zimbabwe. The Mongols were extremely efficient and militarily effective barbarians who conquered existing empires (Arabs, Russians, Indians, Chinese) and then were completely absorbed into the conquered cultures.

 

[Doubtful Teeks]

After reading this I got a sudden urge to make Vikings with Berserkers....5.1.1

 

[American Zealot]

I agree with the idea of adding a SE Asian civ, but I think that rather than the Cambodians we should use either the Siamese (Thai) or the Burmese (Myanmars?). I personally prefer the Siamese, but my opinion is prbably clouded, being from Thailand. The reason I would choose them though is becasue they A) they resisted European invasion during colonial times (this is why they are known as Thai, which means free in their native langauge). B) During WWII they showed their diplomatic savy by not resisting the Japanese untill the Americans started to win the war, when they formally declared war on the Japanese (the moral, be allys with the winners ). One last thing, any Civ that is located in South East Asia will be what you get if you put China, Japan, and India in a blender and set it to grind, you'd get them.

 

[Zouave]

You forgot the Carthaginians. Hannibal came close to winning the Second Punic War. Imagine how the world would have changed if Rome was reduced to just a city state without an empire (or republic pre-B.C.)?

The Polynesians have a major problem: lack of resources/shields in Oceania.

Somebody make a Carthaginian mod. They would have to be commercial, and either religious or militaristic.

 

[jon78]

of course, there ain't much resources in oceania, as in life. new zealand has some, and some islands in polynesia and micronesia is blessed with fantastical resources.
the easter island must have had huge amounts of resources once, when they raised the statues.

of course, the cities founded on the tinier islands wouldn't be very big, but with a starting bonus of a fast ocean-going trireme, the polynesian could grow into a significant power factor quite rapidly. think if you could get aussie for yourself in an early game. or colonies in the americas.

 

[Dario]

Originally posted by NY Hoya
Agreed on some points...Spanish or Hiberians definitely belong, I'd say just Spanish; Portugal is a different country with a unique culture....

Have to disagree with you pal. If anyone should be in included then it should be the portuguese, because they started the whole sea exploring business. All the major discoveries, that allowed the colonialist age to start were portuguese. Portuguese discovered brasil, the sea route to india, explored the asian south east (established regular contacts with the chinese, the indians, the japanese, etc), probably even discovered america (there's a theory that america was not discovered by columbus, but by another portuguese guy named gaspar corte-real, wich makes sense, because the spanish were simply not explorers...) establishing trade routes all over the world.

Spanish had a completely different approach: they did no sea exploring of their own, they just packed armies in boats, hired some portuguese navigators, and exterminated everyone in south america, bringing all the gold back to spain.

Confusing spain and portugal is a big mistake: portugal was a commercial and exploring civ, while spain was a militaristic one.

 

[Shaitan]

Originally posted by The Republican
After reading this I got a sudden urge to make Vikings with Berserkers....5.1.1

Got 'em. Try the Essex in my British Isles mod.

 

[vulture]

Spain and potugal are running neck and neck for most of the sea exploration of the new world but the land expeditions discovered far more than just gold and should not be dissmissed that lightly.

Just because the portugese weren't as good as the spanish at subjugating and killing off the native populations. Don't think they were spending all that cash on the idea of peacful scientific missions. It was all about finding somone less advanced than you then picking through the bodies for loose coins.

 

[jon78]

the portoguese during that time were probably not that friendly at all, just like most of european countries.

if the vasco da gama-expedition to India would be featuered as a film, it would be a gruesome gorefest-splatter.

 

[Dario]

Originally posted by vulture
Spain and potugal are running neck and neck for most of the sea exploration of the new world but the land expeditions discovered far more than just gold and should not be dissmissed that lightly.

Just because the portugese weren't as good as the spanish at subjugating and killing off the native populations. Don't think they were spending all that cash on the idea of peacful scientific missions. It was all about finding somone less advanced than you then picking through the bodies for loose coins.

Oh, don't get me wrong, portuguese were extremelly efficient in exterminating the weak. They did that on brasil, africa, etc...
My point is that portuguese primary approach was explore->establish trade point (called "feitoria" in portuguese)->start trading. The heavy land exploring and native slaughtering came much later...

Spain on the other hand, did no sea exploring at all. Their approach was to colonize the new land (because they had the people in raw numbers to do it) slaughtering the natives in the process.

My point is that, without the portuguese starting the process and launching the first ships into the unknown no one would have done it for them. At the time it was common belief that the world was flat and os there was a limit to the ocean, and whoever approached the limit would be dragged to death. When portuguese set sail, they ignored this corageously, because the sea was the only way out for them. When spanish, dutch or english set sail they already knew that there was no such limit to the ocean, because the portugueses had discovered it...

 

[vulture]

Originally posted by Dario


My point is that, without the portuguese starting the process and launching the first ships into the unknown no one would have done it for them. At the time it was common belief that the world was flat and os there was a limit to the ocean, and whoever approached the limit would be dragged to death. When portuguese set sail, they ignored this corageously, because the sea was the only way out for them. When spanish, dutch or english set sail they already knew that there was no such limit to the ocean, because the portugueses had discovered it...

Who finnaly decided that the earth was not flat is always hotly debated by enlightened european societies. We love to ignore the fact that the egyption mathmeticians and priests proved the earth was round through mathmetics and observation about 2500 years before the spanish started hiring italians to do their dirty work. Determining the circumfrence of the planet within 1000 miles. But what could those ancient pagan cultures have to offer the enightened nations of the Iberian penninsula?

 

[Dario]

Originally posted by vulture


Who finnaly decided that the earth was not flat is always hotly debated by enlightened european societies. We love to ignore the fact that the egyption mathmeticians and priests proved the earth was round through mathmetics and observation about 2500 years before the spanish started hiring italians to do their dirty work. Determining the circumfrence of the planet within 1000 miles. But what could those ancient pagan cultures have to offer the enightened nations of the Iberian penninsula?

That's not the point !
It's not important at all that the egyptians proved the earth was round, the important thing is that in the 15th century people BELIEVED that the world was flat and there was a huge abyss in the end of the ocean. That belief stoped them from seting sail and exploring the seas. Portuguese also believed that, but they had both the need and the guts to overcome the fear and set sail...

P.S. : Spain didn't start hiring italians for their dirty work. Columbus was not genovese, he was portuguese, and probably a spy for the portuguese king. When he set sail to the west indies, both portugal and spain already knew that america was there...

 

[vulture]

Originally posted by Dario

P.S. : Spain didn't start hiring italians for their dirty work. Columbus was not genovese, he was portuguese, and probably a spy for the portuguese king. When he set sail to the west indies, both portugal and spain already knew that america was there...

If Columbus was on the Portugese payrole why did they turn him down on financing his journey?

If everyone knew that the Americas were there why did Columbus report that he had succeeded in landing in the Indies and was close to finding Cathay?

If everyone knew about the Americas why haden't they been pilliaging them a hundred years earlier?

 

[Feinder]

Frankly, I find the whole "There should be Portugal! No! Spain! No! Portugal! No! Spain!" debate rather tiresome. But...

I am curious. You mentioned that "the kings of Spain and Portugal already knew that America was there..."

Please to elaborate. Not flaming, it's been a while since I was in History class (loved it). But last time I checked, it was a pretty big deal that he "discovered" a big mound of dirt where there should only have been water (*smile*).

-F-

 

[Cruiser]

Originally posted by Dario


That's not the point !
It's not important at all that the egyptians proved the earth was round, the important thing is that in the 15th century people BELIEVED that the world was flat and there was a huge abyss in the end of the ocean. . .

Dead wrong.

Erasthostenes proved in 200 BC in Alexandria that not only the Earth was round but that its circumference was about 24,000 miles around

Educated people knew this. They knew it in 1492. Columbus was opposed at Court so much as no one believed a ship could store enough water and food to sail for upwards of a year all the way west from Spain to Japan (or the East Indies). And they were right! Columbus did not know where he was going but fortunately ran into the unexpected Western Hemisphere!

Columbus was a good sailor and leader, though.

But no educated person in 1492 thought the Earth flat. If they taught you that in public school tell the teacher she's an idiot.

 

[Dario]

Originally posted by Cruiser


Dead wrong.

Erasthostenes proved in 200 BC in Alexandria that not only the Earth was round but that its circumference was about 24,000 miles around

Educated people knew this. They knew it in 1492. Columbus was opposed at Court so much as no one believed a ship could store enough water and food to sail for upwards of a year all the way west from Spain to Japan (or the East Indies). And they were right! Columbus did not know where he was going but fortunately ran into the unexpected Western Hemisphere!

Columbus was a good sailor and leader, though.

But no educated person in 1492 thought the Earth flat. If they taught you that in public school tell the teacher she's an idiot.

Educated people didn't set sail on boats ! Simple people with no education did ! And those believed in sea monsters, and the sea ending, etc...

 

[Alphidius]

Firstly, yes both the Portuguese and Spanish were neck to neck during the age of exploration.

Secondly, the Portuguese are avid and zealous explorers. They of course set up trade posts and colonies to protect their interests but like all effects of colonisation, there was bloodshed.

Thirdly, the Spanish are unlike the Portuguese. Due to the end of the Reconquista (some war where they try to expel the Moors I think), scores of warlike nobles are eager to fight new enemies. Hence their militaristic approach.

Both nations are different and yet similar in ways. Their cultures and goals are different while both are seeking new things to be discovered. Yes, they should be included as civs.

Hope this clears things up!