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Intuitiveness of breaking out of unhappiness spirals

Discussion in 'Community Patch Project' started by SpankmyMetroid, Oct 27, 2018.

  1. SpankmyMetroid

    SpankmyMetroid Chieftain

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    With the 10-10 update we have a good tool to temporarily stop needs stacking up by halting growth. I think with this we are close to wrapping up happiness tweaking since now needs are put more in control of the player rather than being completely arbitrary. Unfortunately (and this is probably more the case for casual players or people who don’t like to manage their cities) what usually is a cheap bandaid to fix unhappiness is to set the city focus to growth or production (this usually gives a few points of happy by getting rid of specialists and reducing distress)... but in the case of growth this will just make the problem worse since it will encourage the city to grow more quickly, thus updating it’s needs for the worse. In the other case, focus production sometimes won’t even help distress that much based on the city terrain (what will they work if you’re surrounded by farms?). This is especially true for cities that are ‘too big’ for their era (which is seen in recent complaints about tallish civs like india), where these sudden dips in unhappiness are more likely to happen in anyway. So the player who sees their unhappiness in the red and focuses growth since it seems to be the only way to immediately alleviate the problem might make the sitution much worse for themselves, to the point where there’s actually nothing they can do until cities start flipping (or they reload a save).

    What you’re supposed to do is make sure the city is avoiding growth at the same time as focusing on distress tiles. This gives you the few points of happiness so your empire doesn’t tank yields but at the same time makes sure your situation doesn’t get worse when a new pop is added.

    The problem is, this makes no sense. Why would you want to focus growth on a city while halting it at the same time? It seems entirely contradictory. When we go gold, I’m not sure how players who don’t go on the forums would figure something like this out. First impressions will count for a lot, and if new players boot up the game and don’t know the correct way to fix unhappiness, they will get frustrated and probably won’t come back. I’m not sure what the best way to convey it to players would be (a tooltip, civalopedia entry?)
     
    CppMaster likes this.
  2. tu_79

    tu_79 Warlord

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    Change some of those farms to more productive improvements. Surely you can build some villages. Surely you can build a building with especialist slots.

    No. You force your citizens to work on tiles with most yields not being food, including especialist slots. Working on a 4:c5production: mine tile gives the same distress as working on a 4:c5food: farm.

    This is true. The game UI can only be so informative. Well, now at least, we have a tooltip saying what your happiness will be after a new citizen is born, so if you do care about happiness, you can find the tooltip and realize what to do with it. I agree not everyone will do.
     
    Skidizzle likes this.
  3. Bromar1

    Bromar1 Chieftain

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    I think the advisors should be reincarnated for VP. You know, warning you not to grow too fast etc
     
  4. John.B.C

    John.B.C Chieftain

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    It would be very cool.
     
  5. BiteInTheMark

    BiteInTheMark Chieftain

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    Farms can be planted everywhere, and there are plenty ways to improve the yields of farms (river/adjectant bonus/tech bonus/cathedrals/imperialismn/freedom). But only 3 ways to improve villages (city connection/trade route/rationalismn), 2 of those options are very limited and in most cases your only able to plant 2 of them on a road. The third option may not fit your game strategy.
    So you end up with a +3 yield improvement, if your not able to work hills or forests.

    Its a bit sad this villages didnt get that much love. How would be: remove the trade route bonus for villages but let caravansery and custom house improve villages by +1 hammer/gold and change the buff to villages from rationalismn back to +1 culture/+2 science.
    Its not often possible to work great hammer tiles, cause of this I really start to like the arborea map, gives the option to form your environment. Once ive played a multiplayer game with a mate on a ring map, 75+% of the map was grassland, not possible to generate any greater hammer tiles.

    I have a mate which plays normally on prince, but was able to beat the zulu on emperor (another proof you didnt need to be that good to play higher difficulties, if your able to warfare). He know about the median calculation, but didnt noticed the save mechanic, nor did he know about the "stop growth" button.

    I ask me, if it would be possible to create a popup at founding the capitol, which informs about the most necessary infos for beginners, or make a link from the popup to a register in the civilopedia, which informs over the most important changes.
     
    Last edited: Oct 28, 2018
  6. Txurce

    Txurce Warlord

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    How to stop unhappiness spirals and how to communciate it to new players are separate issues. The solution to late-game unhappiness is not band-aids, but to manage growth before it becomes a problem. It's that simple to address the problem... and that hard to intuit the answer in time. So what's a newcomer to do?

    Read a guide that explains it. That's what you do in every sophisticated game, if you'd rather not stumble through a lot of trial and error, or read every post you can find. It takes effort in one of those areas, and that's fine: a difficult game based on a mod of a prior version of Civ is not for everyone. tu_79 has a good basic version of such a guide, although it doesn't focus enough on how to manage the growth that creates late-game problems. Updating it after ilteroi's changes go into effect in the next patch would be terrific.
     
  7. Gazebo

    Gazebo Lord of the Community Patch

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    Re:advisors, that whole system is hardcoded. @JFD was working on something akin to this many moons ago but he went radio silent on it. RIP good buddy.

    G
     
  8. Moi Magnus

    Moi Magnus Warlord

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    https://www.reddit.com/r/civvoxpopu...o_much_unhappiness/?utm_source=reddit-android

    https://www.reddit.com/r/civvoxpopu...tress_seems_broken/?utm_source=reddit-android

    Some post about unhappiness in 10-10.

    I don't remember when, but I remember Gazebo talking about putting all the modifiers as static so that you only get unhappiness increase at city growth (and no longer at new technologies), and I'm in favour of it.

    On a side note, I'm not convinced by the use of the UI with "total unhappiness/ number of citizens". I think the place could better be used to make a "current happiness / happiness if every city growth" (or happiness if at the next tech discovery)
     
  9. tu_79

    tu_79 Warlord

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    Hard to accept that some people we know just die without a single note. They just vanish and we have to join the points. Holidays? Illness? Death? We can't say.
     
    Moi Magnus likes this.
  10. Gazebo

    Gazebo Lord of the Community Patch

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    He never mentions 10-10. My guess is that he isn’t on that, the description isn’t consistent with the changes.
     
  11. BiteInTheMark

    BiteInTheMark Chieftain

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    Your effort to deny informations and facts is amazing.
    Thread opener of the first link said:
    "I am playing in the 10/10 beta. I find that happiness is better than previous versions but still a bit unmanageable."
    Thread opener of the second link said:
    "Similar swings have been happening throughout the game, (my first with the new beta) although not this extreme."
     
  12. Gazebo

    Gazebo Lord of the Community Patch

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    On mobile, the sub-posts were collapsed by default and I did not see them. Mea Culpa. In any case, see my other post on the topic.

    AND, note this: you continue to irritate me, the person spending my free time on this project, with your personal attacks. Grow up, stop attacking me, or you go back on the naughty list and I ignore anything and everything you say.

    G
     
    vyyt, burleigh, glider1 and 2 others like this.
  13. Tzar Sasha

    Tzar Sasha Tzar of Nowheresville

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    Would it be possible to have an option to work "happiness"? Like we have the option to set cities to work food, production, science, culture etc. Can one be added that will work the best tiles / specialists to provide the best yield in happiness?

    I fear it is hard coded but doesn't hurt to ask...
     
  14. wobuffet

    wobuffet Barbarian

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    So a Governor "focus"/setting, you mean, right ?
     
  15. Gazebo

    Gazebo Lord of the Community Patch

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    It would upend so many UI elements to do so. Theoretically ‘default’ does this pretty well.

    G
     
  16. Stalker0

    Stalker0 Baller Magnus

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    We did a brainstorm on this a while back and found some loopholes thst can be abused with the “happiness project” concept so it was abandoned.

    Honestly the biggest thing thst new players have to learn is thst happiness is not controlled by yields, not really. It’s controlled by needs reduction. Shifting your yields around does very little overall, the key is keeping up with infrastructure.
     
  17. Kim Dong Un

    Kim Dong Un Chieftain Supporter

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    I don't understand how you Immortal/Deity players keep up with the needed infrastructure while having to constantly maintain military against carpets of AI units.
     
  18. SpankmyMetroid

    SpankmyMetroid Chieftain

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    Settle defensively. If you can outwit the AI through military, you only need a small army and can spend the rest of your hammers on infrastructure.
     
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  19. Txurce

    Txurce Warlord

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    It's a little more complicated than that, which is partly why it's confusing. I think yields are a key, in that they ought to determine your city's growth. Infrastructure is essential for happiness, but just building the current distress and poverty buildings often doesn't resolve the problem.
     
  20. XplosiveLun

    XplosiveLun A humble village

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    I kinda agree on this. Although I haven't done any empirical research, from my experience, I believe actualizing the potential of city seems more productive than simply aiming to fix distresses. What I mean is building something that will give the city the most. For example, improving multiple local resources with one infrastructure, building villages on hub cities, building powerful unique buildings, etc. The ultimate goal is to outpace rivals' development, keep up your development sustainably.
     

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