Invisible Hell Terrain

[Sarisin]

I took a two-month break from playing FFH/FF/Orbis because it was just getting too frustrating to play.

I decided to try again and downloaded all the current updates and patches.

I started a game of FF first and, unfortunately, the frustrations continue as my game crapped out around turn 600 (epic speed) due to constant MAFs.

I started a new game, this time with a Large map instead of a Huge one. I had a pretty good game going with the Sheaim, but then things got really strange.

Before playing my first FF game, I chose the Play Now option. Then, I always select the No Hell Terrain option, among others.

However, it appears that my game has invisible Hell Terrain for some reason. The AC is quite high, but I cannot understand:

1. Why are there Nightmare and Snake Pillars on the map? Why did my Cotton change to Razor Weed? See Hell Terrain pic.

2. What happened to the Ancient Forests and improvements? In just 11 turns they have vanished. See before and after pics. Not just in Grottiburg, but Galveholm and my other two cities too. What could have caused that resulting in some serious food shortages. Blight has come and gone long ago and wouldn't affect Ancient Forest. There was no smoke/burning either.

It just looks to me like the No Hell Terrain option is bugged, but I am open to other suggestions.

Sadly, this game looks shot too.

 

[xienwolf]

I'll have to tweak things for the resources changing, that part shouldn't happen.

Disabling Hell Terrain with the game option turns off the hell terrain, it does NOT turn off the plot counter. Plot counters are required for Demons to spawn, if you want no demons, you need to choose the no demons option. They can ONLY spawn in plots with a Plot Counter of 9 or more (hell terrain), but some people still have graphical issues with hell terrain, so the option was modified to allow plot counter, but disable terrain conversion. The changing of resources might actually be a good thing so that you continue to have a vague idea of where Hell has spread to come to think of it. I'll leave it up to Vehem's judgement on linking Hell Resources to No Hell Terrain gameoption.

I'll also modify the game test outputs so that a mouseover of a plot will inform you if it is Hell or not, so that with the gameoption selected (or in ice) you can still know where Hell has spread to. (If you have Chipotle activated, hold SHIFT and hover a tile, it will tell you the plot counter)


I would suspect invisible pillagers for the loss of improvements. The loss of Ancient Forests would possibly also be from the Hell Terrain code continuing to have unintended consequences with Hell Terrain disabled.



For the MAFs, I lost track of it, but there was a thread in here about how to set up your computer to provide more memory to Civ and make them pretty rare.

EDIT: Was an easy fix to just disable all changes of resources/terrain if the gameoption is being used. So for now I'll have that planned for the next patch.

 

[WarKirby]

I really don't think they way you've implemented it here, makes sense at all, xien.

Disabling hell terrain should disable the plot counter as well, I'd say.

Perhaps it would be best to add a "Disable Hell Terrain (Graphical only)" option, which would do what it does now. The actual disable hell terrain should prevent it's effects entirely. It's just extremely illogical otherwise.

 

[Iceciro]

Agree with WarKirby (gasp! shock!) in the separating of the two.

 

[Vehem]

I really don't think they way you've implemented it here, makes sense at all, xien.

Disabling hell terrain should disable the plot counter as well, I'd say.

Perhaps it would be best to add a "Disable Hell Terrain (Graphical only)" option, which would do what it does now. The actual disable hell terrain should prevent it's effects entirely. It's just extremely illogical otherwise.

Agree with WarKirby (gasp! shock!) in the separating of the two.

This has actually been the topic of some debate in the team forum this morning - we've actually gone with HellTerrain/PlotCounterSpread both being disabled by that option. Any Hell Terrain that is added through WorldBuilder or a Scenario will still exist and is able to spawn demons as it would normally - but it won't spread at all.

 

[Sarisin]

I'll have to tweak things for the resources changing, that part shouldn't happen.

Disabling Hell Terrain with the game option turns off the hell terrain, it does NOT turn off the plot counter. Plot counters are required for Demons to spawn, if you want no demons, you need to choose the no demons option. They can ONLY spawn in plots with a Plot Counter of 9 or more (hell terrain), but some people still have graphical issues with hell terrain, so the option was modified to allow plot counter, but disable terrain conversion. The changing of resources might actually be a good thing so that you continue to have a vague idea of where Hell has spread to come to think of it. I'll leave it up to Vehem's judgement on linking Hell Resources to No Hell Terrain gameoption.

I'll also modify the game test outputs so that a mouseover of a plot will inform you if it is Hell or not, so that with the gameoption selected (or in ice) you can still know where Hell has spread to. (If you have Chipotle activated, hold SHIFT and hover a tile, it will tell you the plot counter)


I would suspect invisible pillagers for the loss of improvements. The loss of Ancient Forests would possibly also be from the Hell Terrain code continuing to have unintended consequences with Hell Terrain disabled.



For the MAFs, I lost track of it, but there was a thread in here about how to set up your computer to provide more memory to Civ and make them pretty rare.

EDIT: Was an easy fix to just disable all changes of resources/terrain if the gameoption is being used. So for now I'll have that planned for the next patch.

The resources changing was a killer as far as health benefits go. Cow changed to Nightmare, I believe, but, Pig did not for some reason.

I really don't understand what a plot counter is. I don't mind having the demons, but since it became an available option in FFH many versions ago, I have selected the No Hell Terrain feature. I hated having to go through the micromanagement of hell terrain spread and it seemed to slow my games down too.

I never recall seeing this happen before, though where I got the results of hell terrain as far as resources changing anyway.

I don't buy the invisible pillagers idea either. It was early in the game and I'm not sure what units could be doing that. Also, I had build the Empyrean Wonder that identifies invisible bad guys, I thought. Finally, I'm sure I would have noticed those improvements being pillaged, but they seemed to all vanish within 11 turns as my thumbnails show.

Not all the Ancient Forests have disappeared, but most have.

I don't see the thread on solving the MAF problem. I am OK until I use Huge maps, which, when filled up cause constant MAFs and a few other CTDs. My second game, this one with the Sheaim, I used a Large map and no problems with MAFs.

I have 4gb of RAM and a 512mb ATI graphics card and I'd love to know how to tweak it for Civ so I could play the Huge maps.

Thanks.

 

[Thunder_Gr]

I don't see the thread on solving the MAF problem. I am OK until I use Huge maps, which, when filled up cause constant MAFs and a few other CTDs. My second game, this one with the Sheaim, I used a Large map and no problems with MAFs.

I have 4gb of RAM and a 512mb ATI graphics card and I'd love to know how to tweak it for Civ so I could play the Huge maps.

Thanks.

Here it is: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=308737. The second page presents the solution.

 

[Vehem]

I don't buy the invisible pillagers idea either. It was early in the game and I'm not sure what units could be doing that. Also, I had build the Empyrean Wonder that identifies invisible bad guys, I thought. Finally, I'm sure I would have noticed those improvements being pillaged, but they seemed to all vanish within 11 turns as my thumbnails show.

Feasible if it's a few patches old - it used to be possible for Mistforms to spawn as Demon Barbarians - though I'd have thought Dies Diei would have revealed those...

I don't see the thread on solving the MAF problem. I am OK until I use Huge maps, which, when filled up cause constant MAFs and a few other CTDs. My second game, this one with the Sheaim, I used a Large map and no problems with MAFs.

I have 4gb of RAM and a 512mb ATI graphics card and I'd love to know how to tweak it for Civ so I could play the Huge maps.

Thanks.

It's not a solution per se (the issue is buried in the game engine and so far as I know no-one has managed to solve it for BtS yet) - but the thread discussing possible solutions is here. The details in the top post were an early attempt - be sure to check out Post #22 for a more successful one.

 

[Sarisin]

Feasible if it's a few patches old - it used to be possible for Mistforms to spawn as Demon Barbarians - though I'd have thought Dies Diei would have revealed those...



It's not a solution per se (the issue is buried in the game engine and so far as I know no-one has managed to solve it for BtS yet) - but the thread discussing possible solutions is here. The details in the top post were an early attempt - be sure to check out Post #22 for a more successful one.

I'm using the most current version and patch of FFH and FF.

I used the fix that Thunder gave me and got a MAF on Turn 468 using a Huge map.

The additional one you posted looks like it is for XP machines only? I am running Vista.

 

[xienwolf]

The improvements deleting was probably also the Hell Terrain spread. It clears out Improvements while updating things.

 

[Thunder_Gr]

I'm using the most current version and patch of FFH and FF.

I used the fix that Thunder gave me and got a MAF on Turn 468 using a Huge map.

The additional one you posted looks like it is for XP machines only? I am running Vista.

Vista? This sounds like a problem. I guess your pagefile is already aprox 4.5GB, and you have more than 10GB free disk space. Of course you have made sure no Antivirus software is running while you play...

I wish I could be of more help, but I run Win XP professional and I have stopped playing huge maps since FF050 was released, due to my machine's inability to run fast enough after turn 500... My MAF problems were solved using the /3GB switch for winXP. If you are familiar with how Vista work, perhaps you could check if your change did make it to the boot file.

 

[Sarisin]

Vista? This sounds like a problem. I guess your pagefile is already aprox 4.5GB, and you have more than 10GB free disk space. Of course you have made sure no Antivirus software is running while you play...

I wish I could be of more help, but I run Win XP professional and I have stopped playing huge maps since FF050 was released, due to my machine's inability to run fast enough after turn 500... My MAF problems were solved using the /3GB switch for winXP. If you are familiar with how Vista work, perhaps you could check if your change did make it to the boot file.

Plenty of free disk space and I never had a problem running AVG playing Civ4/FFH, etc. going way back.

Yes, I know using Large maps is a solution. I am OK with that, but I was hoping there was a fix that would allow Huge maps without constant MAFs in the mid-later game - I play Epic speed.

I guess not. Back to Large maps.

 

[zup]

Seriously, you turn off anti-virus software?

 

[Iceciro]

AV software is sometimes more dangerous to have on than not. I don't run any AV Software because at one time I had a virus that actually burrowed into AVG and was un-removable because of it, forcing a reformat.

I use a combination of a weekly Kaspersky online scan, and common sense. If you don't do those things you're not supposed to do on a computer, you generally don't get viruses.

Also, Sarisin, I'm having the same issue. I have 8gb of ram but XP will only recognize 3gb max, minus the fact that my GFX card is 1gb, (Your graphics card memory comes out of that 3gb max - windows has to assign the memory in your card too) giving me a grand total of 2gb which just isn't enough for a Huge map in Fall Further.

I'm really really considering Vista so I can get to the other 6gb I'm wasting. But windows 7 is so close and I know I'll want that....

 

[Sarisin]

AV software is sometimes more dangerous to have on than not. I don't run any AV Software because at one time I had a virus that actually burrowed into AVG and was un-removable because of it, forcing a reformat.

I use a combination of a weekly Kaspersky online scan, and common sense. If you don't do those things you're not supposed to do on a computer, you generally don't get viruses.

Also, Sarisin, I'm having the same issue. I have 8gb of ram but XP will only recognize 3gb max, minus the fact that my GFX card is 1gb, (Your graphics card memory comes out of that 3gb max - windows has to assign the memory in your card too) giving me a grand total of 2gb which just isn't enough for a Huge map in Fall Further.

I'm really really considering Vista so I can get to the other 6gb I'm wasting. But windows 7 is so close and I know I'll want that....

I don't know if Vista will matter, Iceciro.

I have Vista (albeit the 32 bit version) with 4 gb of RAM and a 512 mb ATI card and simply cannot play the Huge maps.

I really don't have any problems with high-end FPS shooters, RTS games or Action RPG games, but the one I like to play the most....

I realize by playing Huge maps with slow speeds I am an Extreme FF player and need to dial things back a bit, but I really, really like the big extravaganza games and its hard to give them up.

 

[Vehem]

I'm really really considering Vista so I can get to the other 6gb I'm wasting. But windows 7 is so close and I know I'll want that....

There are rumours that certain Vista package owners will be getting a free upgrade to Windows 7, which is as close as we're going to get to them saying "Vista went wrong".

 

[zup]

Windows 7 will suck as well. But sadly it will have such a huge market share, almost all games are for Windows exclusively.

 

[Iceciro]

I've actually played with Windows 7 and it's a vast vast vast improvement over Vista, zup.

My beta is just out (they only give you like sixty days to screw around with it then yank your registration) or I'd still be using it.

 

[Vehem]

Windows 7 will suck as well. But sadly it will have such a huge market share, almost all games are for Windows exclusively.

I've actually played with Windows 7 and it's a vast vast vast improvement over Vista, zup.

My beta is just out (they only give you like sixty days to screw around with it then yank your registration) or I'd still be using it.

I've heard the same. I've tried very hard to avoid any contact with Vista, but from the early reports (from some very unlikely sources) Windows 7 sounds a little more hopeful.

I'm thinking Vista was to XP what ME was to 98. That means Windows 7 becomes what XP was to 98, and that was a good move... (logical fallacies abound - but nevermind)

 

[JimMorrison]

Wouldn't that make Win7 analogous to Win2K? XP would be the next full generation, this is just a half generation, such as occurred between ME>2K.