Iran, the Red Sea, and the West (tm).

[Crezth]

Autorotation is a safe and reliable landing maneuver. It is however tricky to pull off. Helicopters are dodgy because they have to fight themselves to stay airborne and every control maneuver carries one or two auxiliary maneuvers that must be perfectly synchronized. They are ruthless to slight mistakes or malfunctions. They may even be safe on average, but the effort you have to put in to keep them that way far eclipses anything you ever have to do for a car. And at the end of the day when you operate a helicopter you’re still fighting gravity.

 

[Thorgalaeg]

Autorotation is never reliable. It is an emergency maneuver which doesn't lack danger even in ideal conditions. This is how autorotation ends when it ends well:

 

[uppi]

I believe uppi is going on what I could find on the apparently-named "Death Index" - here's an example: https://www.forthepeople.com/blog/how-safe-are-helicopters/ (there are lots of comparable links, from articles in Slate, to crowdsourcing on Quora, to reddit threads, etc).

The problem with this from a statistical pov. is the number of car accidents doesn't mean that the car itself is problematic - just the situation when driving a car and faced with other drivers. Which should be taken in to account, but then so does Senethro's original point in that this was undertaken in basically self-defeating conditions. If you drive a car off of a cliff on purpose, is the fault the car, or the driver? And in that case, should the vehicle statistics reflect it, or should it be some (probably horrendously high) Human Cause statline?

Yes, that was my source. I did not think that it would be controversial enough to require further investigation, but as Samson showed it does seem to be more complicated than that.

I believe that most car accidents are not related to any technical failure (well, yet...) and for helicopters technical failures are certainly more relevant. But does it make a difference? For the generic question "would you rather get in a car or a helicopter", it does not really matter whether you would die because of a technical malfunction or human error.

Of course, there is the more specific (and maybe more relevant) question "would you get in a helicopter in really bad weather". For this, the equivalent car question is: "would you get into a car when the streets are covered with a layer of ice" and each winter we find out that many people are answering the question with "yes".

 

[Gorbles]

Of course, there is the more specific (and maybe more relevant) question "would you get in a helicopter in really bad weather". For this, the equivalent car question is: "would you get into a car when the streets are covered with a layer of ice" and each winter we find out that many people are answering the question with "yes".

Yeah, of course. The difference here though is that cars are generally considered more mandatory (and in the case of day-to-day living, made so by job requirements, etc) than any trip in a helicopter. So one is more of a choice than the other (imo).

 

[uppi]

Yeah, of course. The difference here though is that cars are generally considered more mandatory (and in the case of day-to-day living, made so by job requirements, etc) than any trip in a helicopter. So one is more of a choice than the other (imo).

Maybe, but the thought processes of "I need to get there in time and this is my only option" are probably very similar. The need to get there is usually overestimated and the risk underestimated.

 

[Thorgalaeg]

When I worked in Ceuta I used to take the Ceuta-Algeciras helicopter twice every week to cross the Gibraltar Strait, it was 10 minutes and 25€ for residents vs 1 hour and 27€ in the ferry, so it was almost mandatory for me, and the helicopter landed on top of the parking where I had my car so it was extra comfy (if a bit too noisy). With bad weather the helicopter was not an option as they simply won't take off.

 

[Narz]

Associated Press reporting, Iranian spokesmen say the crash is America’s fault:

What isn't?

 

[Birdjaguar]

Allah has spoken: Flying in helocopters over mountains in bad weather is a poor choice.

 

[KMRblue1027]

It's been a couple years but flying a helicopter into fog is exactly how Kobe died IIRC. They are stupid dangerous even if cars are too. I'd only get in one for a medical emergency myself.

 

[EnglishEdward]

Been looking up the specification of the helicopter:

Bell 212 - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

One does wonder if the pilot knew it was unsafe weather, but was bullied into flying.

Males me think of the Polish air crash that killed their President in 2010.

 

[Birdjaguar]

Been looking up the specification of the helicopter:

Bell 212 - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

One does wonder if the pilot knew it was unsafe weather, but was bullied into flying.

Males me think of the Polish air crash that killed their President in 2010.

So it is likely that the craft was over 20 years old?

 

[EnglishEdward]

Well, yes the wiki said they stopped making them in 1998.

But we still have people flying WW2 spitfires,
but not over mountains in fog, there being bold
pilots and there being old pilots, but no bold old pilots.

 

[Samson]

Well, yes the wiki said they stopped making them in 1998.

But we still have people flying WW2 spitfires,
but not over mountains in fog, there being bold
pilots and there being old pilots, but no bold old pilots.

That is probably not how Rish! travels though.

 

[amadeus]

So it is likely that the craft was over 20 years old?

A cursory reading of what I’ve found says the Iranian Bell 212 fleet was purchased by the Shah, which means the helicopter would have been at least 45 years old.

 

[Birdjaguar]

^^^^ Reminds me of the "Wonderful One-Hoss Shay"

Have you heard of the wonderful one-hoss-shay,
That was built in such a logical way
It ran a hundred years to a day,
And then, of a sudden, it ah, but stay
I 'll tell you what happened without delay,
Scaring the parson into fits,
Frightening people out of their wits,
Have you ever heard of that, I say?
Seventeen hundred and fifty-five,
Georgius Secundus was then alive,
Snuffy old drone from the German hive;
That was the year when Lisbon-town
Saw the earth open and gulp her down,
And Braddock's army was done so brown,
Left without a scalp to its crown.
It was on the terrible earthquake-day
That the Deacon finished the one-hoss-shay.

...and the poem goes on for many verses

Poem: The One Hoss Shay by Oliver Wendell Holmes, 1858

 

[Crezth]

Autorotation is never reliable. It is an emergency maneuver which doesn't lack danger even in ideal conditions. This is how autorotation ends when it ends well:

It’s the definition of reliable. It’s hard to pull off but the technique is reliable. I know people who will take someone up 4000 feet, go into a bank turn, and shut off the rotor to nail an autorotation landing at the end of the runway after a pleasant sail across the beachhead. They save fuel every time. Why’s that? Because it’s reliable. It’s so reliable it is considered the primary distinction of a helicopter’s safety over that of a quad rotor or any vertical lift platform without rotor inertia. And last but not least, gyroplanes always fly in autorotation, and they are crazy safe and stable. As long as they aren’t made by idiots named Bensen.

Other proof it’s reliable: the military requires autorotation training. Until you’re good at it. Hell your helicopter CFI license will test for it too. Aviators generally don’t train on hail Mary’s.

But don’t take my word for it, here’s a guy with a name and a history:

My Take on Autorotations | Tim Tucker's Helicopter World

www.timtuckershelicopterworld.com

 

[Samson]

Armed forces target US aircraft carrier Eisenhower

During the past hours, the American-British aggression launched a number of air-raids on the capital, and the governorates of Sana’a, Hodeidah, and Taiz.

The raids were distributed as follows:

• Four airstrikes on the capital Sana'a, resulted in one injury.
• Two airstrikes on Sanaa Governorate
• One airstrikes on Haifan area in Taiz
• 6 airstrikes on Hodeidah Governorate, distributed as follows:
• one airstrike on the port of Salif
• An airstrike on the radio building
• Two airstrikes on Ghalifa camp
• Two airstrikes on the homes of Ali Mohsen and Ali Abdullah Saleh.

The airstrikes on Hodeidah have left 16 martyrs and 41 injuries, including martyrs and injured civilians in the airstrikes that targeted civilian sites such as the Hodeidah Radio building close to Al-Thawra Hospital and the Coast Guard facility in Al-Salif Port, and the total number of martyrs and injuries, both civilians and military personnel reached 58 martyrs and injuries.

The airstrikes have caused damage to the Hodeidah Radio building, as well as the Coast Guard building in the port of Saleef, in addition to a number of commercial ships in the port.

This represents a clear targeting of civilian objects, a blatant violation of all international laws, and a full-fledged war crime.

Therefore....
In response to these crimes, and within the right to of respond to the American-British aggression, and in continuation of truimphing over the oppression of the Palestinian people, the missile force and the naval force of the Yemeni Armed Forces carried out a joint military operation targeting the American aircraft carrier “Eisenhower” in the Red Sea. The operation was carried out with a number of winged and ballistic missiles, the hit was Accurate and direct, thanks to Allah.

The Yemeni Armed Forces will not hesitate to respond directly and immediately to every new aggression on Yemeni territories, by targeting all sources of threat and all hostile American and British targets in the Red and Arab Seas.

The Yemeni Armed Forces confirm that the crimes of the American-British aggression will not prevent them from performing their religious, moral and humanitarian duty towards the Palestinian people, and that their operations will continue until the aggression stops and the siege on the oppressed Palestinian people in the Gaza Strip is lifted.

Allah is sufficient for us, and He is the best disposer of affairs, the best protector, and the best helper
Long live Yemen, free, beloved and independent
Victory belongs to Yemen and to all the free people of the nation

 

[Samson]

Biggest death toll so far in the war, and still no mention on the bbc news home page. They have got room for astrobot and "was the weather bad this spring".

Spoiler I am not sure why Murdoch is producing this :

An hour long uneditted video of the Houthi demo today in Sanaa from "The Times and the Sunday Times"?? It does show they are really into showing up for a good protest on a friday, there is again a lot of people there.

 

[Klaus Hergersheimer]

Armed forces target US aircraft carrier Eisenhower

During the past hours, the American-British aggression launched a number of air-raids on the capital, and the governorates of Sana’a, Hodeidah, and Taiz.

The raids were distributed as follows:

• Four airstrikes on the capital Sana'a, resulted in one injury.
• Two airstrikes on Sanaa Governorate
• One airstrikes on Haifan area in Taiz
• 6 airstrikes on Hodeidah Governorate, distributed as follows:
• one airstrike on the port of Salif
• An airstrike on the radio building
• Two airstrikes on Ghalifa camp
• Two airstrikes on the homes of Ali Mohsen and Ali Abdullah Saleh.

The airstrikes on Hodeidah have left 16 martyrs and 41 injuries, including martyrs and injured civilians in the airstrikes that targeted civilian sites such as the Hodeidah Radio building close to Al-Thawra Hospital and the Coast Guard facility in Al-Salif Port, and the total number of martyrs and injuries, both civilians and military personnel reached 58 martyrs and injuries.

The airstrikes have caused damage to the Hodeidah Radio building, as well as the Coast Guard building in the port of Saleef, in addition to a number of commercial ships in the port.

This represents a clear targeting of civilian objects, a blatant violation of all international laws, and a full-fledged war crime.

Therefore....
In response to these crimes, and within the right to of respond to the American-British aggression, and in continuation of truimphing over the oppression of the Palestinian people, the missile force and the naval force of the Yemeni Armed Forces carried out a joint military operation targeting the American aircraft carrier “Eisenhower” in the Red Sea. The operation was carried out with a number of winged and ballistic missiles, the hit was Accurate and direct, thanks to Allah.

The Yemeni Armed Forces will not hesitate to respond directly and immediately to every new aggression on Yemeni territories, by targeting all sources of threat and all hostile American and British targets in the Red and Arab Seas.

The Yemeni Armed Forces confirm that the crimes of the American-British aggression will not prevent them from performing their religious, moral and humanitarian duty towards the Palestinian people, and that their operations will continue until the aggression stops and the siege on the oppressed Palestinian people in the Gaza Strip is lifted.

Allah is sufficient for us, and He is the best disposer of affairs, the best protector, and the best helper
Long live Yemen, free, beloved and independent
Victory belongs to Yemen and to all the free people of the nation

shouldn't we specify that this is state-run media?

 

[Samson]

shouldn't we specify that this is state-run media?

I thought the tone made it clear enough.

You do get my point, I had to go to saba because it was no where else. It is on AJ now, but still not the beeb.