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Iraq protests

Discussion in 'Off-Topic' started by Socrates99, Jan 2, 2020.

  1. Cheetah

    Cheetah Deity

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    Couldn't agree more.

    I guess there's the whole money aspect though: Countries get quite a bit of revenue from the fees airliners pay them to use their airspace.
     
  2. Cheetah

    Cheetah Deity

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    If the logic is that Trump can be blamed for what Iran does, then doesn't it follow that Obama can be blamed for what Iran and Syria did?
     
  3. hobbsyoyo

    hobbsyoyo Deity

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    I doubt those fees would be affected by a temporary closure due to crisis but I don't know. I wouldn't put it past a big multinational to put clauses in a contract where they get a payout if there is a disruption of service for any reason.
    I think it's a stretch comparison. With this specific act, you can draw a direct line in the chain of events that led up to it and it started with Trump's assassination. This absolutely does not absolve Iran of any responsibility. Hell, I'd even go along with saying they get most of the blame though I personally don't agree with it. But to say Trump has no blame for this I think is not right. Actions have consequences, even when they're unintentional and/or happen to someone else.
     
  4. Cheetah

    Cheetah Deity

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    I have no numbers either, it's just the only argument I can think of for why countries doesn't do it.

    But the US bombed Soleimani because Iran's militias attacked the embassy in Baghdad, because the US bombed one of Iran's militias, because one of Iran's militias fired rockets at a military base and killed a (naturalised) US citisen.

    As far as I know that's where this recent chain of events starts.

    And then we're to hold Iran responsible for the death of Soleimani?
     
  5. hobbsyoyo

    hobbsyoyo Deity

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    Not according to Trump. First it was an imminent threat. Now it's that he had pressure from key GOP senators to do something.
     
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  6. red_elk

    red_elk Deity

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    Quite telling remark, about naturalized citizen.
     
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  7. Cheetah

    Cheetah Deity

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    Though again, I take anything Trump says as a confirmation that the opposite is true... :p

    Those were the public actions that had recently taken place, at the very least.

    I find it rather interesting, and sad, in a way. Not that it wouldn't be sad if he was born an American citisen, but I don't know, it felt somehow sader. I forgot his name now, but he was an Iraqi born translator, who had worked with the Americans and was now a citisen, iirc. Left two small kids (and a wife, I presume).
     
  8. Kyriakos

    Kyriakos Alien spiral maker

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    All in all more than 200 civilians died in less than a week, who would likely be still alive if Trump didn't assassinate Sol. I am sure this somehow is to be celebrated.
    I hope aliens invade soon.
     
  9. Cheetah

    Cheetah Deity

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    https://twitter.com/AlinejadMasih/status/1216004196077592579

    With Iran having killed lots of Iranians again, anti-regime protests have reappeared.

    "Shameless Revolutionary Guards! Get your hands off our country!"

    "Murderer Khamenei!"

    Edit:
    https://twitter.com/AlinejadMasih/status/1216033422499631104

    "Magr bar diktator!" -- literally "Death to the dictator!", but should be understood as "Down with the dictator!". Its the same type of chant used against anything Iranians don't like, and the one used against America.

    Edit 2:
    Considering the situation, I'm sure this is on all the news in the US and Europe?

    Edit 3:
    https://twitter.com/na_doooore/status/1216031260151296000
     
    Last edited: Jan 11, 2020
  10. innonimatu

    innonimatu Deity

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    Don't spread fake news. "The bulldozing" lie came from a single source showing a photograph of what was really a loader carrying a large piece of debris from the plane, which is practice in the process of collecting those pieces into storage as part of a crash investigation. At no time did they deny access to the wreckage or destroy evidence.

    At this time it seem that people in the iranian military were attempting to hide their responsibility, and had to be forced to acknowledge it. But they did not manage to prevent the investigation and its inevitable outcome of whatever happened coming out. It would be interesting to know if the iranian government initially took the word of the military and only later realized what had happened. The head of the iranian agency investigating the crash did say it was "scientifically impossible" (no missile had been shot he was sure...) but made no attempt to hamper the investigation. Most logical explanation is that he had been deceived.
     
    Last edited: Jan 11, 2020
  11. Hrothbern

    Hrothbern Deity

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    What I pick up on news is that many of the Iranian people who also had protests in November last year blame the Revolutionary Guard for the lies about the airplane shot down.

    With more protests the Iranian government could (be forced by the Revolutionary Guard to) shut down internet again. This is again a moment where the moderates can isolate the hawks further from the people.
     
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  12. Cheetah

    Cheetah Deity

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    You know, the only people I see talking about empowering the moderates in Iran, and make things better that way, are Western liberals...

    No Iranian (or Arab or Muslim) I have seen so far has even mentioned any moderates in the regime. Much less suggested that they can be a solution.

    Which moderates are you thinking of?

    More tweets from the protests:
    https://twitter.com/maralkay/status/1216054304471179264

     
  13. luiz

    luiz Trendy Revolutionary

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    I do feel bad for the liberal people of Iran. They're far from being majoritary, but they are a significant group. They must feel like aliens in that burning dumpster that is Iran under the ayatollahs.

    And to think that under the Shah women wore bikinis to the beach and Tehran was known for its nightclubs...
     
  14. Cheetah

    Cheetah Deity

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    I'm not convinced they aren't the majority, but I don't have any numbers to back that up.

    Also:

    Tfw Trump's twitter account is more woke than half of CFC:
     
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  15. innonimatu

    innonimatu Deity

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    That is because manichaeism is no longer naively believed in in the region where it was invented, but seems very much in fashion among western liberals. They keep pretending that there are good guys versus bad guys, whereas in reality there are many competing groups everywhere.

    Even the iranian regime has a hard time keeping up its make-believes internally. You however wish to believe Iran to be some monolithic place? Very western liberal of you. Great to justify wars, manichaeism, what can be better than to wage war on evil?

    Iran's government will change as the vast majority of government changes happen, from within. And it will happen because nothing is forever. The generation that established it is dying or old age, something new will arise. That is up to iranians, not to be imposed or even "encouraged" from outside.
     
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  16. innonimatu

    innonimatu Deity

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    And today you can find bikinis in beach, alongside with burkas and gay couples, in Lebanon. You can still find a secular government in Syria that is protecting the country's many diverse communities from the head-choppers so loved by the western liberals. (the "democratic forces", for cynical laughs). You can find repressive governments in Saudi Arabia and Iran. You can find a corrupt government in Iraq. And an apartheid government in Israel.

    The Middle East is complex. And would probably be better off if western liberals (and all other assorted outsiders) abstained from interfering there and let its people rule themselves within each country.
     
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  17. Hrothbern

    Hrothbern Deity

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    As I have the situation there in my mind:
    The elected government is, or better has been, moreover the place for the more moderates, the reformists.
    The last 1-2 decades this government shell has more and more become empty and powerless because of the hawks, the deep state, the state in the state, gaining strenght (and because of corruption the government shell losing authority).

    The economy worsening increases the desire for change among the population, especially the young... but at the same time the places to organise reform change, the middle class and civil society, is hollowed out.

    In cynical way you could say that the elected government is only there to prevent a mass uprising with the deep state free to go for its agenda.

    But that all does not take away that the elected government is the only place in Iran for the population for reform lessening the power of the hawks. That makes the government positions the position for moderate officials.
    The alternative is a mass uprising dealing with both the Revolutionary Guard elite and the sitting government officials.
    Under that threat the Iranian govt must move and can only do that by weakening the hawks.
     
  18. luiz

    luiz Trendy Revolutionary

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    No, the most logical explanation is that they were covering it up, lied about it, but were caught up in their lie by footage obtained by Western governments and thus had no choice but to admit it, without admitting they were lying before. I don't see how something that actually happened can be "scientifically impossible".

    The Middle East by and large has been moving backwards in terms of civil and religious liberties since the 70's. Even Saudi Arabia was a far more tolerant place before the government started adopting hard-line Sharia enforcement in the 80's, in an attempt to diffuse the multiple fundamentalist uprisings, including of course the Mecca attack. Iran went from an authoritarian but socially progressive regime to a theocracy ruled by medieval clerics. Afghanistan - also had nightclubs and women in miniskirts before the whole communist coup / soviet invasion / islamist uprising thing. In Egypt, Nasser used to mock the Islamic clerics that said women should cover their heads, he said it was ridiculous and would never happen in Egypt. Well, I've been to Egypt recently, and the only women who don't cover their heads are western tourists. Even Turkey is islamicizing fast.

    I agree the west should not interneve and try to change their mores by force (though it should of course still punish regimes that sponsor terrorism or whatever). But we shouldn't delude ourselves either. The social regression going on there went hand to hand with greater popular participation. Greater democracy there won't mean western style liberalism. It might mean women in burkas.
     
  19. red_elk

    red_elk Deity

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    Speaking about burkas and bikinis, all is becoming mixed these days.

     
  20. amadeus

    amadeus As seen on OT

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    Are the stars on that Syrian flag tilted slightly or is it just me?
     

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