Ireland

[Benderino]

Now, I don't claim to know everything about the Republic of Ireland. However, I was curious to know what you fellow OT people think about the civil war there. Which side is right? Is the IRA acceptable? Who has a greater legitimacy to the land of "Northern Ireland"? Please tell me your thoughts.

 

[Johann MacLeod]

its stupid, if your movement involes killing people then you need to reevaluate your methods, imho

 

[Mega Tsunami]

One man’s terrorist is another man’s freedom fighter. Some people even see Al-Queda as freedom fighters. Killing is killing is killing.
The crux of it all, it seems to me, is that many people in Ireland and NI, want a combined Ireland as it was many hundreds of years ago. Fair enough (I happen to agree with that).
The problem is, a majority of people in NI want to remain British. How do you deal with that in a democracy? Some people are happy to kill to defy the majority in NI.

 

[Wolfe Tone]

Anyone care to take a guess at what side I'm on?

First of all one thing that really annoys me is when ever they are talking about violence in these parts, they automatically say IRA. Well I've news for you there are loyalist groups killing as well. Except the loyalists having been mainly fighting withing themselves over drugs recently. Also it's not there are more republican groups than the IRA, there are a number of breakaways. As for most people wanting to stay 'occupied' I don't recall any referendum recently about who should rule the six counties. If you base it on the the ammount of people who declared themeselves Catholic or Protestant it works out about (I don't know how accuarate these figures are, the might be a little dated) 45% Protestant and 42% Catholic with the rest in the other catergory. I find it strange that the 'others' are automatically considered unionist. Also many Catholics don't declare themselves so on the census as they think that they may be discriminated against when it comes to housing etc which is not unheard of (well maybe not so much now, but many people remember a few years back when the the civil service was nearly all protestant.)

Now if anarchywrksbest was still around he could tell you about the unionist side of the argument, but as a nationalist I can only give you my opinions.

 

[Gainy]

'mon the UVF

I blame it all on the British. If they/we hadn't invaded, then there wouldn't be this problem. I am on no particular side, i just think the killings are wrong.

 

[Cunobelin]

Neither side is right and any ideals the various groups were founded upon have melted away and been replaced by bitter in fighting and more selfish goals

 

[Benderino]

Originally posted by Gainy bo
'mon the UVF

I blame it all on the British. If they/we hadn't invaded, then there wouldn't be this problem. I am on no particular side, i just think the killings are wrong.

I think the the English were wrong for this, trying aggressively to make Ireland a colony like they have Scotland. The Scotch, I hear, weren't very good, for they moved to Ireland just to persecute. The Brits don't belong there, true. But how to remove them. The violence the IRA and other Republican groups (plus the Protestant terrorist groups) condones is not a means to the solution. The killings are wrong.

However, the Brits were eager to move to Northern Ireland and settle it, so they should be just as eager to leave and go back to Britain.

 

[phoenix_night]

Well the roots of the differences in the north go back to before Britain even came into existence. So let's all blame the English.

 

[Simon Darkshade]

Ireland should be united. Under the Crown.

 

[phoenix_night]

Originally posted by Simon Darkshade
Ireland should be united. Under the Crown.

 

[Mega Tsunami]

Benderina wrote

I think the the English were wrong for this, trying aggressively to make Ireland a colony like they have Scotland. The Scotch, I hear, weren't very good, for they moved to Ireland just to persecute. The Brits don't belong there, true. But how to remove them. The violence the IRA and other Republican groups (plus the Protestant terrorist groups) condones is not a means to the solution. The killings are wrong.
However, the Brits were eager to move to Northern Ireland and settle it, so they should be just as eager to leave and go back to Britain.

Scotland is most definitely not a colony! You have offended both the Scots and the English, for different reasons. They joined Britain (not England) on their own free will and have had many opportunities of leaving Britain, but the majority want to stay.

England ‘took’ N.Ireland many hundreds of years ago in a different era. We did not settle there (it was full of Irish!). There are virtually no English there at all now. There are no Brits there that have anywhere else to go. They are Irish who are also British and want to remain so. They did not come from England, Scotland or Wales. They are from NI, for goodness sake! It’s a bit like saying all native Americans should leave America!

 

[Aphex_Twin]

I thought IRA was dismantled

Haven't heard a lot about violence in NI recently. Must be those Middlea East subjects that keep on getting in the way...

 

[SeleucusNicator]

Originally posted by Gainy bo

I blame it all on the British. If they/we hadn't invaded, then there wouldn't be this problem. I am on no particular side, i just think the killings are wrong.

The British were certainly well within their rights as conquerors to do what they did. While that may have given the conflict its current nature, they certainly cannot be blamed for attempting to make Ireland a more British-friendly place.

That does, however, give them some responsibility in this conflict, much like the United States has responsibility in Liberia or France in the Ivory Coast; and the British certianly have attempted to diffuse the situation.

Sadly, that has not been enough to stop many radical groups.

 

[Simon Darkshade]

Originally posted by Aphex_Twin
I thought IRA was dismantled

Far from it. They are still quibbling about weapons decommissioning, and are at an impasse.

 

[Gainy]

I'm all for blaming the English

Bendrino, Scotland ain't a colony

I thought IRA was dismantled

Haven't heard a lot about violence in NI recently. Must be those Middlea East subjects that keep on getting in the way...

The IRA will never be dismantled. It isn't one large "Army". Its just really a name for small groups of terrorists. One of these groups did actually hand over their weapons and pledged to stop terrorising. There are still many more though...

England ‘took’ N.Ireland many hundreds of years ago in a different era.

No they didn't. Irleand was a colony of England. There was lots of fighting and kinda civil wars. Eventually there was an agreement that everyone who wanted to still be part of Britain were to go to N.Ireland. The rest would stay in the republic. Thats a brief summary

 

[phoenix_night]

Originally posted by Mega Tsunami
They joined Britain (not England) on their own free will and have had many opportunities of leaving Britain, but the majority want to stay.

Well, actually they did join England (and Wales) to create the union of Great Britain.

Originally posted by Mega Tsunami
England ‘took’ N.Ireland many hundreds of years ago in a different era. We did not settle there (it was full of Irish!). There are virtually no English there at all now. There are no Brits there that have anywhere else to go. They are Irish who are also British and want to remain so. They did not come from England, Scotland or Wales. They are from NI, for goodness sake! It’s a bit like saying all native Americans should leave America!

Actually, England did ship a lot of people over to Ireland. There were protestant plantations in the north.

Originally posted by Gainy bo
No they didn't. Irleand was a colony of England.

No, Gainy bo, you are very mistaken indeed. Ireland was not a colony of England. Never. Ever. Ever.

 

[phoenix_night]

Originally posted by Mega Tsunami

England ‘took’ N.Ireland many hundreds of years ago in a different era.

No, they took all of Ireland.

 

[Gainy]

No, Gainy bo, you are very mistaken indeed. Ireland was not a colony of England. Never. Ever. Ever.

Well Enlgand were an occupying force then, who had control over the country. I see no difference...

EDIT: And Pheonix, i already made that point

 

[YNCS]

The Irish have a nasty habit of blaming problems on Cromwell, William of Orange and the Pope instead of seeking solutions for the problems.

 

[phoenix_night]

Originally posted by Gainy bo

Well Enlgand were an occupying force then, who had control over the country. I see no difference...

You see no difference? It wasn't quite the same where Scotland was concerned was it?

Originally posted by Gainy bo

Bendrino, Scotland ain't a colony

You so passionately refute complains that Scotland was a colony but claim that's exactly what Ireland was, and say there's no difference...

make your mind up, either they are both colonies or neither.

The correct answer is: neither.