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Ironclads now INSANELY powerful

Discussion in 'Civ5 - General Discussions' started by Vidszhite, Jun 22, 2012.

  1. Vidszhite

    Vidszhite Prince

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    Seriously, I know they were utterly worthless before, but now they might be a bit OP - they literally make all other naval units before them obsolete the instant they appear. The naval unit just below them is worth 25 power. Ironclads are now FIFTY power. 50! Only 5 less than Destroyers! And they can enter ocean now!

    They are COMPLETELY invincible against wood ships (as intended, I imagine, since they actually were), they move double speed in coast, and they have a built-in 33% bonus to attacking coastal cities, making them even stronger than Artillery for cities before you get ANY promotions, which are each an additional 33% themselves. Granted, if your coast cities only have one naval tile next to it, you're pretty safe unless you face one that has promotions, since they seem to take tons of damage from city bombardment, but if your city is exposed to the sea, these things are like naval battering rams without the downsides, better than anything in its era for attacking cities OR navies. If you get one to City Attack level 3, it can take off 1/2 of a city's health in a single hit. They can one shot wood ships with only a single promotion.

    I'm not kidding when I say invincible. I had 5 Privateers attack a level 0 Ironclad, didn't die, it got an upgrade, I gave it bonus vs. ships and it turned around and one shotted the first privateer I pointed it at. It was at 20 HP when I ordered it to attack, it didn't even lose half of that in the attack. The Priv was at 55. My Admiral wasn't even nearby.

    I lucked out and became allies with all the city states while conquering Germany and Hunland, and I seem to have like 50 sources of coal as a result, so I have a MASSIVE fleet of these just tearing everything to pieces. I also lucked out by having all the AIs put their important cities near the coast. Looks like game over. They all had huge navies before my ironclads started one shotting everything. Their only downside is they only have a move speed of 3, but since it's not "half speed in ocean", it's "double speed in coast", these things move 6 speed on the coast, and for every movement speed upgrade you get for your navy, it gets double benefit. Great Lighthouse + Naval Tradition means they move 10(!!) speed in coast, and since they get the melee ship upgrade line, every time they attack a coastal city, you get gold.
     
  2. Flaviusx

    Flaviusx Chieftain

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    Well, yeah. That's kind of what happened in real life when ironclads showed up. Made all of those wood ships obsolete.
     
  3. MadDjinn

    MadDjinn Deity

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    to be fair, it only takes a few Frigates to focus fire down an Ironclad.

    So they aren't 'all powerful' vs. them.
     
  4. Kabloosh

    Kabloosh Warlord

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    They were more balanced in the game than in real life. Ironclads were literally invulnerable to any sort of cannon fire at the time.
     
  5. aluelkdf

    aluelkdf Prince

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    I think that ironclads should be much more powerful than frigates. But they should not be able to move much faster. The ironclads were powered by steam engines. So as far as movement goes, the only time an iron clad would have an advatage would be if there was very little wind. By the mid 1800's even the wood ships advanced quite a bit in technology. If there was strong steady wind, a wood ship with sails may have been able to even move faster than an ironclad could. Its just that ironclad movement was more reliable under all conditions. So to represent this, I think that ironclads should only get 1 extra move per turn compared to frigates.

    Also, an ironcld should not be almost as powerful as a destroyer. A destroyer should be WAY more powerful than an ironclad.
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  6. Kabloosh

    Kabloosh Warlord

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    Destroyers need their range ability again. Sure, make it weaker than their melee attack but they should have a range option. Its just silly to think of a modern day ship attacking close range.
    Oh and what is up with gunships. These have got to be the most flimsy units in the game. Sure make them weak on defense but they suck even on offense. Their only "use" really is to get ahead of the group and scout things until which will lead to their death since just about anything does more damage to it not to much how any form of aa will just tear it apart. For this reason gunships should be the most powerful vs land units for the exception of aa guns and sams which obviously slaughter gunships.
     
  7. smallfish

    smallfish Immortal

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    Have they changed the gunships mechanic to allow them to take cities now?
     
  8. peddroelm

    peddroelm King

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    can gunships enter coastal tiles now ? can they attack naval units ?
     
  9. Vidszhite

    Vidszhite Prince

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    I know, and it wouldn't be such a shock to me if these things couldn't also conquer cities, and since they have a built in bonus vs cities, coastal cities are virtually defenseless against a mass of ironclads.

    Funny you mention cannons - enemy cannons also seem to do only 9 damage to them. Cities somehow get missiles once you hit the industrial era, though, so they do 33 damage to them.

    Takes 4-5 of them to counter 1. If you fail, it gets a level up. You can't focus a group of them down with just frigates, and if you try, you're in retaliation range and can't move until next turn. If an ironclad catches up to a frigate, it sinks. Even in open ocean, it has a base move speed of 3. You can't kite them.
     
  10. smallfish

    smallfish Immortal

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    So they still the same ole "melee-but-can't-take-cities"?

    Man, that's lame.
     
  11. Vidszhite

    Vidszhite Prince

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    Gunships should have been made a 1 tile ranged unit.

    Oh God, but then Mongolia would get to keep all their Keshik goodies...
     
  12. Kabloosh

    Kabloosh Warlord

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    I was behind Russia and Persia at the time but I had one advantage over the Ironclads. My frigates were experienced and had the +1 range bonus. The Ai seems to run in terror of these units questioning what to do which allowed me to slaughter the Ironclads.

    There are just some units in this game that suck. They were good ideas that just weren't implemented correctly and gunships were one of them along with paratroopers and marines. Marines are down right useless. I can just shell stuff from the coast with battleships and air units. No point in building a "weaker" infantry unit that is weaker than normal infantry. Paratroopers would of been a good idea if they could attack after using their special. All they are really good for is looking cool in berets and attracting all the attention since they are now behind enemy lines. I suppose they would make for good sacrificial units but that doesn't really fit my play style and is just a waste of turns building something like that.

    The +1 range on gunships would be smart too. They are upgraded from spearman > pikeman > lancer > anti tank gun(another useless unit) > gunship

    I always gift anti tank guns back to the city state that gave it to me. I generally counter tanks with planes, siege, and my own tanks :/
    The AI never really makes enough tanks to warrant making units that specialize in killing tanks and sucking vs the bulk of their army which is generally infantry.
     
  13. Vidszhite

    Vidszhite Prince

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    Technically, Ironclads already have -2 speed compared to Frigates in Ocean, but once you get to the coast, ironclad speed becomes +1.

    Yeah, once again, the AI has no idea how to actually fight a war.

    Actually, it seems to be random. Sometimes they will fight expertly, but other times, they just move their units around and never attack.
     
  14. rakun666

    rakun666 Chieftain

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    maybe they should bring back the Coastal Fortress building.
     
  15. CYZ

    CYZ Toileteer

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    This is good news. Ironclads really should tear wooden navies to pieces. And destroyers are good as melee ships IMO, they are not meant for longrange bombardment.
     
  16. Vidszhite

    Vidszhite Prince

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    Yeah, you know, I kind of like it. Especially since I'm the one using it. Obviously, Ironclads will be completely useless once Subs appear, but that's not for a while.
     
  17. bhavv

    bhavv Glorious World Dictator

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    They should be much more powerful, but they should be slow.
     
  18. Gali

    Gali Prince

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    Well keep in mind destroyers versus coastal guns or Battleships have to get in close. They are badly outranged. Even in D-day a few destroyers got in really close for bombardment. If you think of it that way destroyers as melee is a lot less annoying.

    Japanese destoyers tore the Us navy apart in Guadacanal with torpedo assaults which required you to be pretty close just think of it like that. Oh and they need to depth charge subs which requires being really close. Ca't hep you against early eras but thats part of civ. Was always annoying in 4 when my cav got riiped to pieces by longbows.
     
  19. Vidszhite

    Vidszhite Prince

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    and unless you have Great LH + Naval Tradition, they are slow.
     
  20. Atwork

    Atwork Immortal

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    From wikipedia:
    Destroyers should be a ranged attack unit, with a ranged attack of 1. It's strengths would be: an ability to move after ranged attack, bonus defense against subs, and the ability to 'see' adjacent subs. This would allow the destroyer unit to better simulate it's real life naval role. Later in the game, it could carry 1 or 2 missiles.

    Melee attacking cities/land units from the ocean should be left to a buffed Marine units, specifically designed for that role in the game. After the ancient/classical era, melee ships should be completely obsolete.

    Ironclads should fit the role of the slow moving, heavy hitting, early equivalent to the battleship.
     

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