Ironclads ...

Discussion in 'Civ3 - General Discussions' started by The Last Conformist, Mar 31, 2004.

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Do you research Ironclads?

  1. Yes, always.

    10 vote(s)
    9.2%
  2. Sometimes.

    21 vote(s)
    19.3%
  3. Never.

    78 vote(s)
    71.6%
  1. Halcyon

    Halcyon 9000

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    Given that Civ purports to be a reflection of history, it's not too unfair to see Ironclads practically unused. If your game hinges on Industrial naval warfare, though..
     
  2. dreamvirus

    dreamvirus Tai Chi Master 1(1).12.1

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    Ironclads are a good unit but like many others I fail to see the logic (historical or gameplay) to have them as the only unit in the game which have an entire dead-end tech devoted to gaining the ability to make them. I just don't see where that decision came from or how it benefits the game. Military Tradition and Motorized Transportation both give you critical units (cavalry and tanks) but they are still a natural part of the tech tree, and those units are far more important to any player's chances than ironclads are. It seems to me that the only thing the Ironclads tech is good for is slowing down the AI research pace by sending them down a dead-end branch. Has anyone from Firaxis given a reason for this change?
     
  3. Halcyon

    Halcyon 9000

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    The only unit on a dead end tech? What about Chivalry, Military Tradition, Amphibious Warfare, Advanced Flight and Stealth? The first two are top picks if you have both horses and war, but still..

    I assume that it's there to extend the age of sail, which is much shorter in Civ3 than it perhaps should be, given that naval warfare is counterproductive pre-Magnetism when only the Dromon has more attack than defence.
     
  4. Aggie

    Aggie Deity

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    Never looked at it as a way to extend the age of sail. I must say that I like the fact that this indeed works out.
     
  5. necrosmith

    necrosmith Warlord

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    Extending the Age of Sail is a reasonable explanation. I never thought of that either.
     
  6. starrider

    starrider Warlord

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    I *always* research iron clads...usually right after industrialization. (Or after Scientific method while I'm building ToE)

    First note: I never play a pangea map because I think naval strategy is a huge part of how civilization developed.

    Iron Clad tech serves 2 purposes. The first is that most civs will pay handsomely for it. You can sell it to every civ in the same turn getting you lots of GPT letting you crank up research higher.

    If you are dealing with nasty opposing navies, iron clads can sink ANYTHING from the age of sail. They are slower, but with the AI's increasing use of Privateers to try and sink your fleet, iron clads will shred through any wooden ships.

    I also in every game really try to build Leo's Workshop. If I can build that, I play a strategy of building units that I know I will use the upgraded version later (that is, if I have a government and economy to support the units at the time.) Iron clads upgrading to Destroyers are great.

    So take your pick....lots of cash or a decided military advantage that forces the AI to research Iron Clads instead of something else.

    Btw, I used to think as all of you did, until I actually tried researching it. If you are the first to the tech (which you probably will be) you might even get a scientific leader).
     
  7. Commander Bello

    Commander Bello Say No 2 Net Validations

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    I tried them out in one of my first C3C games and found them to be almost useless. They are just to slow, and developing the tech by yourself slows down your progress in a critical situation.

    Of course, if you'd get the tech by trading, they may be fine.. .under certain circumstances.

    (And, by the way, I'm always playing on archipelagos, so there is some need for naval units in my games...)
     
  8. Fanny Brice

    Fanny Brice Prince

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    I sometimes will research them... only if my navy has been chased from the sea and I'm too far from getting to destroyers.

    I think adding that "stub" branch to the tech tree was a great idea. The "age of sail" was a blink of the eye before and it was not worth building frigates.

    But true -- I sometimes do not see the AI build them. Sometimes they do, sometimes they don't.

    In my last game, I was England with the Man-o-War. Wow... that was a great "age of sail" battle. With a small starter navy, I eventually sank every sighted AI ship... this was a long, drawn out slug fest and I needed to control a sea lane to support an overseas army. Fun! (no AI iron clads appeared)
     
  9. homeyg

    homeyg Deity

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    If anybody hasn't noticed, the Ironclad itself was enhanced to have a 6.5.4 ADM. I don't know why they made it it's own tech. I used to always use them in PTW and earlier.
     
  10. The Last Conformist

    The Last Conformist Irresistibly Attractive

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    Act'ly, it's 5(6).6.3, which means it would be a pain to escort Galleons with the things.

    Well, early ship just doesn't figure big in my playing style. The ships I built in my most recent finished game (Monarch, Standard, Continents):

    2 Curraghs
    2 Cruisers
    4 Carriers
    6 Transports
    8 Battleships

    (total naval losses: 2 Curraghs, 1 Transport, 3 Battleships)
     
  11. Frostyboy

    Frostyboy Never Beaten

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    I don't get there
     
  12. Jikjok

    Jikjok Chieftain

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    Ironclads is, as everybody else seems to keep saying, a very useless tech but Starrider has a very good point about why getting to it quickly is useful. If you are a fair bit ahead and the AI doesnt use them you should be able to tear the 'age of sail' ships apart.
     
  13. Zoke0

    Zoke0 Dangerous Hobo

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    I like the tech and the unit.

    The tech really helps the longevity of the age of sail, which allows me to be a pirate menace alot longer, although I have sunk some ironclads with privateers (oddly enough). The tech is can be sold for a hefty price, but I trade it when I'm done with being a Pirate.

    The unit is phenomenol to me. It is my counter Piracy unit, allowing me to keep transport ships safe from enemy Privateers. Because they are slower I keep one ironclad far in front of the Galleon, the Galleon normally catches up the ironclad, and another ironclad a little bit in front of the Galleons so it eventually falls behind. This way if any of the ironclads see a Privateer they sink it immediatly. If the Galleon sees the Privateer I have it run to the nearest ironclad and that ironclad protects it, until the pirate menace is gone.
     
  14. starrider

    starrider Warlord

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    Sorry for quoting all of your comment, but I just had to say that this is _very_ important in conquests. Privateers are much more powerful in conquests, and if you aren't careful they can wreck your shipping lanes (I have done that myself.) The AI loves to use privateers, and frigates can't always sink a privateer on attack.

    Vetern ironclads often hold their own against destroyers and even crusiers.

    I love how they put this as an optional tech...when all civs got ironclads with steam power I never built frigates.

    I am playing as England for the first time. Because of the Man-of-Wars (4 attack, 4 bombard), I saw no need to research Ironclads. Funny enough tho, after I built a fleet of Man-of-War, my more aggressive neighbors built Ironclads
     
  15. jaki_staurt

    jaki_staurt Chieftain

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    I have not researched it in favour of other techs just so that I stay competative with the AI in discovering valuable techs . In Civ III it was invaluable at times when your productive habours were tied up and you needed to bulk up naval numbers. Good for bombardment too.

    On discovery/history whatever channel, they were talking about how many useful discoveries and inventions were brought about and spured on by wars. When Ironclads first arrived, they were a huge turning point in naval history and even though it was made obsolete in no time at all, it was key in changing the way naval powers at the time were going in designing their ships. As for Ironclads with steam power, historicaly it arrived much later. For a very long time the suggestion of a steam powered naval vessel was disgraceful to the ears of naval commanders. Steam power was slowly introduced in the form of steam and sail vessels. Alot of these were churned out by the super powers of the time. They just couldn't let the sails go. It wasn't until the steam powered Ironclad had proved itself in battle that the change really took off.

    I think researching the tech was made optional in C3C because it is not integral to following advances in the tech tree however its still historicaly important and where it is now is probably more chronologicaly accurate.
     
  16. starrider

    starrider Warlord

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    For the first time, I'm playing England this current game. I skipped ironclads because the Man-of-War has a significant strength over standard frigates. Lo-and-behold, the AI researches ironclads to defend against man-of-wars :) Man-of-War's in groups still chew through ironclads (bombard with 4 or 5 then use the last one to sink the ironclad)so for me as England, ironclad is next to useless.

    offtopic: i never realized how powerful the commercial trait is...having never played it. I'm able to use democracy longer and corruption isn't as bad because i can just buy all improvements in far away cities :) amazing!
     

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