Ironically, Culture civs are better at Science than science civs

rgp151

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Firstly, the fact is that the Campus District is generally superior to the Theater Square. This means that it is easier for any civilization to produce science than culture. Thus, producing culture is generally more challenging. Secondly, Great Scientists are vastly more useful than Great Artists, given that all Great Artists do is produce slightly more culture and facilitate tourism, while Great Scientists actually help you advance.

This means that much of the function of Theater Squares is useless for anyone pursuing a Scientific Victory, while Campuses are still very useful for everyone.

But both the Tech and Civics tree are extremely important for any victory condition, including Science. What this ends up meaning is that for anyone pursuing a Science Victory, the biggest challenge is typically producing enough Culture to advance through the Civics tree, not Science. Advancing through the Tech tree is relatively easy.

Thus, when pursuing a Science victory, you end up being better off with a civ that aids in the production of Culture as opposed to Science, ironically making civs like Greece (Pericles) and Khmer better at Science Victories than science focused civs like Scotland and Korea.

Khmer is able to essentially ignore Theater Squares altogether, instead going for Holy Sites and Campuses that provide far more utility. For Greece, the Theater Squares are cheaper and actually provide decent adjacency bonuses, and you can at least sell off the Great Works for Gold to buy stuff, but the 5% added Culture from City-States is the real boon.

Even the Maori can rock a Science Victory, with their insane ability to generate culture and faith without the need of Holy Sites.

So in general, civs that provide intrinsic ways to generate more Culture (especially if paired with Faith) can do more to propel a Science victory than Science oriented cultures like Scotland and Korea, although Korea does have some bonus to Culture as well. This is especially true of Khmer, which also gets a production bonus via Work Ethic.
 

Leyrann

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I frequently don't play for a civ's best victory type anyway, so perhaps I'm not the best person to judge, but I'm not sure I agree. While there are some things in the culture tree that help with a science victory, I don't think any of them are required.

On top of that, culture has more secondary sources than science, such as the Monument, meaning your culture suffers less from not having Theater Squares than your science suffers from not having Campuses (though I do agree that Theater Squares aren't all that good, part of that might be because I tend to not really build any wonders until the second half of the game though, as it's rather risky on Deity).

Also, the science production of some civs is absolutely insane, being further ahead in the culture tree isn't going to make up for something like Korea's cheaper campuses that immediately give 6-8 science each (with card) or Babylon's eureka bs. If anything, those civs suffer more from how expensive their districts get from having so many techs researched so quickly, but then the culture civs suffer from the same thing as district cost depends on whichever tree you're ahead in.

There is the more general trend that culture is more valuable in the early game than science is, but this isn't specific to any one victory type. It's also possible to pivot to a science victory pretty quickly if you decide to, at least assuming you're playing against the AI (a player could probably punish you if you have to pivot).
 
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Russia, Khmer, Pericles, China, and a few others are all better at peaceful science than the so called science civs. The 1 tech per turn is the bottleneck for any civ, so civs that can race down the civics tree and rapid expand are much better at winning science games quickly. The scientists are so contested on Deity it's unlikely to get many before the second half of the game anyways. So I definitely agree with the above.
 

Linklite

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I dont agree that science is easier to get than culture. I generally aim for science reasonably hard, while I never bother with culture. Other than "I don't have anything else to build and it won't let me move on to my next turn until I've decided to build something, so TD it is", I can't remember the past time I built one. Still, I tend to struggle trying to get my science to keep pace with my culture. Culture just comes naturally and really takes off by itself.
 

rgp151

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While there are some things in the culture tree that help with a science victory, I don't think any of them are required.

Well, yeah, but they help a lot. Governments and policy cards are very powerful. No doubt Korea can get the jump on science early on, but Science Victory is a long game, and over time that lead will diminish and Korea has little else to show for it.

Civs that have significant advantages at producing Culture will get to stuff like Recorded History and Enlightenment faster, they will be able to slot more policy cards sooner, they will be able to change out policy cards more often, etc.

So basically a "science oriented" civ is dedicated more to brute forcing their way down the Tech tree, and will lag on the Civics tree, while the Culture civ can advance down the civcs tree in a way that speeds up their advancement down the tech tree, so they end up getting the best of both worlds.

Its because:
#1 The Civics tree helps to advance your Scientific output in ways that don't require production, whereas the Tech tree does not inherently advance your Culture. So Culture helps Science but Science does not help Culture, or when it does it does so in a way that requires you to build something, whereas the Civics tree gives you policy cards.
#2 The Campus is generally more useful and able to boost than the Theater Square. Thus civs that can generate more Culture without needing to build Theater Squares at all, or civs that get bonuses to their Theater Squares that give them more utility, have a big advantage because its easier to makeup the Science gap than it is to makeup the Culture gap.
#3 Governors...(come from the Civics tree)
 

rgp151

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I dont agree that science is easier to get than culture. I generally aim for science reasonably hard, while I never bother with culture. Other than "I don't have anything else to build and it won't let me move on to my next turn until I've decided to build something, so TD it is", I can't remember the past time I built one. Still, I tend to struggle trying to get my science to keep pace with my culture. Culture just comes naturally and really takes off by itself.

I don't see how that could be the case. If you build a campus in every city and zero theater squares, then how could your science even be close to your culture? Also, what policy cards are you using? For science victory, Recorded History and Enlightenment are slotted 100% of the time as soon as they are available. Those two cards essentially double your science output. If I don't do anything but make Monuments for Culture in a civ with no bonus to either Science or Culture, by the time I get Enlightenment my Science would generally be like 400+ and Culture would be in the 100s (maybe? or lower?).

Ignoring Culture significantly slows down your progress. The point I'm making is that civs that allow you to get more Culture without building Theater Squares, or that have bonuses to their Theater Squares, will advance you a lot faster.

I would just suggest this. Play as Pericles for a Science victory. This is a bit simpler than Khmer because you don't have to mess with Holy Sites. Build a Theater Square in every city, sell every Great Work you get for gold unless you can't get any good deals for it. Every city should have a Theater Square, Campus, and either a Commercial Hub or Harbor, and of course a reasonable mix of Industrial Zones. Don't bother with religion. Take all the City-States. You'll see how much faster you go down the Civics tree, and how much this helps to advance your Science even faster. Only build science related Wonders of course.

Also, don't build districts for the sake of it. If you have "nothing to do" run projects like Campus Research Grants, etc.
 
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Also, the science production of some civs is absolutely insane, being further ahead in the culture tree isn't going to make up for something like Korea's cheaper campuses that immediately give 6-8 science each (with card) or Babylon's eureka bs. If anything, those civs suffer more from how expensive their districts get from having so many techs researched so quickly, but then the culture civs suffer from the same thing as district cost depends on whichever tree you're ahead in.

I currently play Babylon in two different games (experimenting), and I solved the increasing district cost by beelining key techs only (not getting lots of eurekas for the sake of it), and abusing faith buying with Moksha.
Faith buying districts especially just circumvents the whole issue that Babylon has in terms of district costs.
I guess you could do the same with Reyna, except that getting high gold income is usually harder early on than raking in tons of faith.
There's also value to be gained from rushing Industrialization (eureka: 2 workshops), as it adds +3(!) production to mines at that point, which covers a lot of the production issues that Babylon has as districts scale up in cost.

Also on topic, yes culture is great for science playthroughs.
Which is why I always rated Gaul so highly for an easy and consistent SV, because they get large chunks of culture without even trying, in addition to all the other broken stuff they can pull off (early man at arms rush with super fast Oligarchy, then snowball from there).
 
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Don't bother with religion.

Not sure I agree there.
I had a game about half a year ago as Pericles where I abused the good old dance of the aurora + work ethic.
Faith buying settlers+districts just snowballed ridiculously hard, then picked World Church once I had about 12-15 cities plonked down.
 

Leyrann

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The 1 tech per turn is the bottleneck for any civ

Uh, are you playing on online speed? I'll admit I usually don't hardcore focus on a single victory condition from the start, but that doesn't mean I cannot create crazy science numbers if I set my mind to it, and it is extremely rare for me to 1-turn techs, except maybe the occasional tech I didn't bother with for two eras. Two-turning does happen more frequently, in particular in the Information and Future Era (in my tech tree, not the game era; I tend to be far ahead of the game era by that point).

Civs that have significant advantages at producing Culture will get to stuff like Recorded History and Enlightenment faster, they will be able to slot more policy cards sooner, they will be able to change out policy cards more often, etc.

Recorded History is so early that you get it quickly from building a Monument in every city and starting Pingala with the culture from pop promotion, no additional investment needed. In fact, it's probably the tech that'd give the governor title that I'd use to get Pingala's science from pop promotion, unless I already completed my government plaza.

Rationality (the Enlightenment card) on the other hand has such high requirements that I usually do not bother slotting it. Cities don't reach size 15 until two eras later, and 4 or higher adjacency bonus is rare unless I have a mountain-rich spawn. Twenty science isn't going to win out over more builder charges or 12 amenities or something like that.

Also, changing out policy cards isn't really an issue for me either. I'm barely ever stuck at research times of more than ~8 turns in the civic tree, and if I really need to change policy cards quickly, well, I tend to skip a few civics on the sides in the medieval and renaissance era, so I can 2-turn one of those.

#1 The Civics tree helps to advance your Scientific output in ways that don't require production, whereas the Tech tree does not inherently advance your Culture. So Culture helps Science but Science does not help Culture, or when it does it does so in a way that requires you to build something, whereas the Civics tree gives you policy cards.

And this is precisely why, as I explained above, it's important to get Pingala and the culture from pop promotion early on. It gets you that slight boost to culture that you need. After Recorded History, there are no civics that you absolutely need for your science victory, though better government is always nice.

I would just suggest this. Play as Pericles for a Science victory. This is a bit simpler than Khmer because you don't have to mess with Holy Sites. Build a Theater Square in every city, sell every Great Work you get for gold unless you can't get any good deals for it. Every city should have a Theater Square, Campus, and either a Commercial Hub or Harbor, and of course a reasonable mix of Industrial Zones. Don't bother with religion. Take all the City-States. You'll see how much faster you go down the Civics tree, and how much this helps to advance your Science even faster. Only build science related Wonders of course.

You know what, I'm planning to do a solo 2-player game so I can play against myself. I'm not sure when I'll start it, but I might just go Korea vs Pericles (while filling out the rest of the roster with regular Deity AI) and see who wins science victory first.
 
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After Recorded History, there are no civics that you absolutely need for your science victory, though better government is always nice.

Well, honestly you don't need any civics at all if we're talking stricly about needs in a SV, as you can win comfortably regardless.
That being said, I'm a big fan of either democracy or communism and using those to fuel a few high production cities with trade routes, getting myself the Royal Society to boost space projects, and any card that boosts IZ adjacency+GE generation (which includes the civic that unlocks the Mausoleum).

Other than that though, the civic tree is kind of a "win harder" mechanic for SV plays in general.
The civic tree isnt nearly as mandatory as the tech tree is, unfortunately.
 

reddishrecue

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Since you make all the space parts in the capital as you pursue your SV, there's a chance that someone aiming for a CV could get your capital to become negative in culture and get it to flip! (Is this still possible with the new patch?) So a CV could get a SV to lose all ship production in the capital just by making your capital flip- through rock bands. All spaceship parts can get lost if I remember correctly.
 

Linklite

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I don't see how that could be the case. If you build a campus in every city and zero theater squares, then how could your science even be close to your culture? Also, what policy cards are you using? For science victory, Recorded History and Enlightenment are slotted 100% of the time as soon as they are available. Those two cards essentially double your science output. If I don't do anything but make Monuments for Culture in a civ with no bonus to either Science or Culture, by the time I get Enlightenment my Science would generally be like 400+ and Culture would be in the 100s (maybe? or lower?).

Ignoring Culture significantly slows down your progress. The point I'm making is that civs that allow you to get more Culture without building Theater Squares, or that have bonuses to their Theater Squares, will advance you a lot faster.

I would just suggest this. Play as Pericles for a Science victory. This is a bit simpler than Khmer because you don't have to mess with Holy Sites. Build a Theater Square in every city, sell every Great Work you get for gold unless you can't get any good deals for it. Every city should have a Theater Square, Campus, and either a Commercial Hub or Harbor, and of course a reasonable mix of Industrial Zones. Don't bother with religion. Take all the City-States. You'll see how much faster you go down the Civics tree, and how much this helps to advance your Science even faster. Only build science related Wonders of course.

Also, don't build districts for the sake of it. If you have "nothing to do" run projects like Campus Research Grants, etc.
The cards I play depend on the needs at the time, which are often dictated by the Victory I'm pursuing.

I almost never build TDs until late in the game. My first district in each city is usually a CH. Second is usually either a Campus or Harbour, depending on whether I've taken Owls and obviously location of the city. Third and beyond will be situation dependent.

At the beginning, science does outstrip culture, but not long in culture overtakes. Later on as my empire settles, science will slowly pullnahead. Towards the end when the game turns into "next turn simulator", my culture leaps ahead of my science. Probably because I start building Wonders.

But yeah, I have no problem generating culture. I generally turn off CV so I can get other ones instead.
 
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Since you make all the space parts in the capital as you pursue your SV, there's a chance that someone aiming for a CV could get your capital to become negative in culture and get it to flip! (Is this still possible with the new patch?) So a CV could get a SV to lose all ship production in the capital just by making your capital flip- through rock bands. All spaceship parts can get lost if I remember correctly.

You really wont flip a capital on loyalty in most cases, because the capital is usually the highest pop city, has the palace for added loyalty, and is usually surrounded by your own cities.
And if someone tries something funny with rock bands, you just DOW them and kick back those rock bands.
Space milestones are also not tied to any city, they are permanent.
You could slow down the exoplanet expedition though if you take out the city that has a space port with ground based lasers in it though.
 
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But yeah, I have no problem generating culture. I generally turn off CV so I can get other ones instead.

I see people repeat that several places.
If accidental CV is an issue, I strongly recommend turning off Monopolies mode, as you won't really get accidental CVs otherwise (unless playing on a very low difficulty setting, and role playing with wonder spam etc.).
 

rgp151

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Not sure I agree there.
I had a game about half a year ago as Pericles where I abused the good old dance of the aurora + work ethic.
Faith buying settlers+districts just snowballed ridiculously hard, then picked World Church once I had about 12-15 cities plonked down.

I don't necessarily disagree, its just that if you're trying to keep it simple for a Science Victory trying to juggle Holy Sites + Theater Squares + Campuses + Com Hubs + Industrial Zones can be a bit much. That's what makes Khmer so good. With them you can just go straight for Holy Sites and not even mess with Theater Squares at all, but of course this also brings with it all of the issues of managing a religion. I was just trying to keep it simple as a comparison is all. Yeah, I'd say Khmer is more powerful than Pericles generally, although on the right map with optimal City-States Pericles could be better.
 
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@Leyrann No I only play on standard speed. It requires 20+ cities or a great CS layout but once 5% science per suze diplo card goes in, Amundsen is chopped, Einstein should be online with all powered research labs, specialist slots filled, cities to ecstatic with as many eurekas obtained as possible, although many of "boost with spy or scientist" simply don't happen.
 
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@Leyrann No I only play on standard speed. It requires 20+ cities or a great CS layout but once 5% science per suze diplo card goes in, Amundsen is chopped, Einstein should be online with all powered research labs, specialist slots filled, cities to ecstatic with as many eurekas obtained as possible, although many of "boost with spy or scientist" simply don't happen.

At what turn count do you usually win a SV with this strategi on deity, assuming standard GS?
Because personally I hardly if ever get to the ultra late civics like 5% science per suzerain, before the game is won.
Then again, I dont go all in on maximizing culture in a SV game anyway.
Curious as to how effective this is if the goal is 1-turning techs and winning quickly.
 

rgp151

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You know what, I'm planning to do a solo 2-player game so I can play against myself. I'm not sure when I'll start it, but I might just go Korea vs Pericles (while filling out the rest of the roster with regular Deity AI) and see who wins science victory first.

That sounds interesting, I may do the same.

Think of it like this:
To excel in science you do the following: Go wide, build campuses, slot policy cards, run Campus Research Grants.

Every civ can do that almost equally well. Korea and Scotland have some advantages, but those advantage aren't really overwhelming when compared to any other civ doing the same thing.

Additionally you can also found a religion and use religion to boost science further, and we'll get to that.

To excel in culture you need to do the following:
Go wide, build Monuments and Theater Squares.

When playing Scotland or Korea, most likely you won't build any Theater Squares or will build them quite late. As a result, you will not excel in culture and you will move more slowly down the civics tree than you otherwise would if you were doing more to maximize culture.

However, when playing Khmer or Pericles, you will generate a lot more culture than Scotland or Korea would. With Khmer you'll be building Holy Sites and with Pericles Theater Squares. But, you'll also be building Campuses so you'll end up with comparable Science generation. However, your culture will almost certainly be double or triple that what Scotland or Korea would produce. This means that your cities will grow faster, you will exert more pressure, possibly flipping cities, and you will move through the civics tree faster, get better policies faster, all of which results in actually generating more science.

Now, the one civ I haven't discussed in Arabia, and honestly I haven't played Arabia in GS, only Vanilla, so I can't comment. I'm not sure how they play in GS and maybe they also generate a lot of both science and culture?

Yes, its true that you can "generate enough culture" without trying very hard with most civs, but civs like Khmer and Greece are able to generate a lot more culture faster, with little or no effort, and that much higher level of culture makes a difference.

Edit: To add, if you do play Khmer for Science, then I tend to favor Work Ethic, Cross-Cultural Dialogue, Holy Order, and Mosque or Wat and try to Evangelize pretty quickly to get them all. Obviously Holy Order is a first pick to get cheaper starting Apostles. It also also be worth it to do an Inquisition, but its situational based on how many of your own large cities you need to convert.
 
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At what turn count do you usually win a SV with this strategi on deity, assuming standard GS?
Because personally I hardly if ever get to the ultra late civics like 5% science per suzerain, before the game is won.
Then again, I dont go all in on maximizing culture in a SV game anyway.
Curious as to how effective this is if the goal is 1-turning techs and winning quickly.

Standard speed Deity Gathering Storm. I've won as fast as T179, but sub 200 in general is doable. The timing of buying the first spaceport and chopping the first two space projects to get the culture boost to slingshot to Globalization makes all the difference. Getting to Synthetic Technocracy is a pretty big deal for the +30% production towards projects, so good culture output is critical.
 
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Standard speed Deity Gathering Storm. I've won as fast as T179, but sub 200 in general is doable. The timing of buying the first spaceport and chopping the first two space projects to get the culture boost to slingshot to Globalization makes all the difference. Getting to Synthetic Technocracy is a pretty big deal for the +30% production towards projects, so good culture output is critical.

Interesting.
Curious about how you 1 turn in the first half though.
I get that it can be done with the 5% suzerain card, kilwa, Scott Amundsen etc. in the late game, but how do you balance out districts in the first half?
I reckon you would still need decent science output to one turn techs (campuses), but since you are also rushing civics i reckon you would want more theatre squares?
 
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