Iroquois - a name that shows respect?

[Bibor]

From wikipedia:

* French transliteration of irinakhoiw, a Huron (Wyandot) name for the Haudenosaunee (the real name of Iroquis; my comment). Used in a derogatory way, it meant "black snakes" or "real adders". The Haudenosaunee and Huron were traditional enemies, as the Huron were allied with the French and tried to protect their access to fur traders.
* French linguists, such as Henriette Walter, and anthropologists, such as Dean Snow, support the following explanation. Prior to French colonization, Basque fishermen traded with the Algonquins, who were enemies of the Haudenosaunee. The above scholars think "Iroquois" was derived from a Basque expression, hilokoa, meaning the "killer people". Because there is no "L" sound in the Algonquian languages of the Gulf of Saint Lawrence region, the Algonquian tribes used the name Hirokoa for the Haudenosaunee. They applied this to the pidgin language which they used with the Basque. The French transliterated the word according to their own phonetic rules and arrived at "Iroquois".

So yes, call a nation "killer people", some illiterate guy with issues can't even prononuce it and then we translate it into French and - voila! What a charming name for a nation!

If its still possible, I'd like to see in future patches the name changed to Haudenosaunee (and maybe in brackets say "Iroquis"). Not just because it's the right thing to do, but because they deserve it as a tribute.

Hey, I wouldn't want to see my nation be called Cannibals just because some Brit thought that "Ungary" (Hungary) means hungry (so they are clearly cannibals)!

EDIT: title

 

[VikingMaekel]

Aaah, the French and their mutilation of languages

So the correct pronunciation, as pronounced in French then, would be 'erokwa'

 

[McDanny]

I doubt it will happen... most people will have enough trouble pronouncing Iroquois. I think the fact you misspelled it in the thread title somewhat confirms that

 

[Bibor]

Well in CIV5 there are no Frenchies, Sausages, Diaperheads or Chinks. I see no reason for having Iroquois (especially in a US game).

 

[Bibor]

I doubt it will happen... most people will have enough trouble pronouncing Iroquois. I think the fact you misspelled it in the thread title somewhat confirms that

Indeed, Iroquois. My bad. But my point still stands.

 

[Valdyr]

I can see what you mean, but when you think about it, almost none of the words we use for countries and ethnicities are actually what the people who actually LIVE there/are that ethnicity use. "Japanese" people actually live in Nippon and speak Nihongo. To Germans, their nation is Deutschland. And even when we agree, English-speakers will probably pronounce it wrong, like France.

I think you're always going to have a degree of incorrectness (and English is far from the only language that does this sort of thing). I'm just glad they aren't the "Native American civilization" any more. With the vast differences in language, geographic distribution, and ways of life of American natives, it really is like having a genericized "European civ" or an "Asian civ".

Edit: and yeah, I'm one more person who joined years ago and is just now becoming more active because of Civ5.

 

[McDanny]

Oh I agree, I think utmost respect should be given to all peoples involved. However, is there any evidence that the Iroquois people today actually object to this name? Maybe if someone of Iroquois descent could help out here...

 

[Bibor]

When I open Google, most links use "Haudenosaunee (Iroquois)" and I often stumble upon this:
It should be noted that "Haudenosaunee" is the term that the people use to refer to themselves.

 

[tokala]

However, is there any evidence that the Iroquois people today actually object to this name?

The one over at the 2k forums hasn't raised hell yet, so apperently it's not that much of an issue

 

[Bibor]

The one over at the 2k forums hasn't raised hell yet, so apperently it's not that much of an issue

Corporate bullying

 

[McDanny]

Ah, well maybe the right and correct thing to do would be to change the name of the Iroquois.

Will 2K do this? No. Why? Because the average consumer doesn't want to have to think too hard, damnit!

It's a sad state of affairs, but Iroquois is the name in common external usage, and so Iroquois it will likely remain.

 

[Drawmeus]

If you have to do serious digging to discover that it's derived from a racial epithet, I think it's safe to say that it has lost those connotations.

Unless descendants of the Iroquois today take offense at the term, there's no problem here.

 

[Bibor]

If you have to do serious digging to discover that it's derived from a racial epithet, I think it's safe to say that it has lost those connotations.

If it did then I'm more than happy to withdraw my comment.

 

[IdleEnergy]

I guess the real question is are YOU offended, or are you making up ways that other people MIGHT be offended. One of those two is worth listening to.

 

[Niptium]

From wikipedia:

* French transliteration of irinakhoiw, a Huron (Wyandot) name for the Haudenosaunee (the real name of Iroquis; my comment). Used in a derogatory way, it meant "black snakes" or "real adders". The Haudenosaunee and Huron were traditional enemies, as the Huron were allied with the French and tried to protect their access to fur traders.
* French linguists, such as Henriette Walter, and anthropologists, such as Dean Snow, support the following explanation. Prior to French colonization, Basque fishermen traded with the Algonquins, who were enemies of the Haudenosaunee. The above scholars think "Iroquois" was derived from a Basque expression, hilokoa, meaning the "killer people". Because there is no "L" sound in the Algonquian languages of the Gulf of Saint Lawrence region, the Algonquian tribes used the name Hirokoa for the Haudenosaunee. They applied this to the pidgin language which they used with the Basque. The French transliterated the word according to their own phonetic rules and arrived at "Iroquois".

So yes, call a nation "killer people", some illiterate guy with issues can't even prononuce it and then we translate it into French and - voila! What a charming name for a nation!

If its still possible, I'd like to see in future patches the name changed to Haudenosaunee (and maybe in brackets say "Iroquis"). Not just because it's the right thing to do, but because they deserve it as a tribute.

Hey, I wouldn't want to see my nation be called Cannibals just because some Brit thought that "Ungary" (Hungary) means hungry (so they are clearly cannibals)!

EDIT: title

No enough with the political correctness. Enough with the concept of «is it offensive to a single individual on this planet? Yes, then we can't!»... It's as mind numbing as barring people from saying one's fat or blind to prefer the terms non-slim or non-seeing.

Iroquois shouldn't even be included in this game as they were a mismatch of prehistorical tribes.

 

[Dark_Jedi06]

I don't think that Iroquois make up a large percentage of the target demographic for the Civilization series, therefore I don't think 2K/Firaxis really give a damn.

 

[Silverwave]

Aaah, the French and their mutilation of languages

So the correct pronunciation, as pronounced in French then, would be 'erokwa'

Not exactly. Here's english and french prononciation audios :

http://fr.forvo.com/word/iroquois/


Note that the french audio is from France's french prononciation, which isn't exactly the same as french in Québec. It's a bit like United-States' and England's english. Obviously, "Iroquois" was mostly prononced by french Canadians rather than Frenchs.

 

[12agnar0k]

Germans don't call themselfs German, or thier Country Germany, this is a translated title, from thier Deutschland, in thier language. Thier are many examples of this type of translation so it works better in their language, similarily, English in German becomes Englich.

Haudenosaunee may have been what the people of Iroquois called themselfs, but it was translated by the French to another name that fits better with their own language. Its surpising it wasn't changed again when put into English to something like "Iroq" and "Iroqians" for ease, but English has always been a bit of a mix of languages.

You can't compare this translation of language to acronyms given as short hand or as racial nicknames to other nations such as "Frog" for France, if we had "The Frog Civ" instead of using the correct name "France". I could see why you could be angry.

But as it stands, the names are all in thier English (or near enough) translations of the Original name the Original people used because the game will be sold to the English. The German speaking game will have France as "Frankrijk", this is a translation, and not to be confused with Racial Acroynms / Steriotypes / Or slurs.

 

[IdleEnergy]

No enough with the political correctness. Enough with the concept of «is it offensive to a single individual on this planet? Yes, then we can't!»... It's as mind numbing as barring people from saying one's fat or blind to prefer the terms non-slim or non-seeing.

Iroquois shouldn't even be included in this game as they were a mismatch of prehistorical tribes.

This thread isn't about whether the Iroquois should be in the game. It's tiresome to see the same "this civilization doesn't meet my standards of civilized because of my particular bias" nonsense over and over again.

I would have thought that a pepper like yourself would be more sensitive to other civilizations consigned to the dustbin of history-- as yours has.

See what I did there? I dare you to get upset after your little rant about political correctness.

 

[SammyKhalifa]

If you have to do serious digging to discover that it's derived from a racial epithet, I think it's safe to say that it has lost those connotations.

Unless descendants of the Iroquois today take offense at the term, there's no problem here.

Much like "Byzantine."