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Is America's UA as weak as it sounds?

Discussion in 'Civ5 - Strategy & Tips' started by kamex, Nov 14, 2010.

  1. Feyd Rautha

    Feyd Rautha Prince

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    I would replace the bomber with a UB. The problem isn't the UA. I think it's average. The problem is that average UA's of other civs (Arabia for example) are backed up by a really good UU/UB. Neither of the UU's of America are amazing so it weakens the civ as a whole.

    Bring back the Mall I say ;)
     
  2. Bandobras Took

    Bandobras Took Emperor

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    Good idea -- I'll just move all my troops away from the border with Alexander . . . :rolleyes:
     
  3. Rathelon

    Rathelon Prince

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    Not when your units are already beyond the exp threshold for barbs, and you're making a lot of gold per turn already. Then they are just an annoyance.
     
  4. EverNoob

    EverNoob Prince

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    Ppl seem to be missing the main advantage of -25% tile purchase. They see it simply as saving money. But the main advantage is that you can buy tiles sooner and faster, which greatly affects how fast your capital/2nd city grow. Tile costs start at 35 gold instead of 50 gold. Combine that with +1 sight for finding CS faster (+15/30 gold), if you place your capital properly it can grow extremely fast.
     
  5. evrett37

    evrett37 Prince

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    ditto what evernoob said...the ability to buy up territory cheaper and thus quicker than everyone else is a great strategic boon. Add the civic that reduces the cost even more and you be have great control of your boarders, strat resources and the field of battle. The fast moving gun units nothing to cry about either.
     
  6. Monsterzuma

    Monsterzuma the sly one

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    Their +1 vision on land units is one of the most powerful traits in the game. Intelligence benefits are very hard to come by via other sources, so this one is just about unique.
     
  7. DaveGold

    DaveGold Emperor

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    Buying that tile cheaply means that you buy the tile two turns earlier. Not buying a tile at all means that you can buy your worker, settler, or warrior five turns earlier.
     
  8. Udey1

    Udey1 Prince

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    na, that would be true if we could further direct auto culture expansions. For hill purchases or insta-border blocks it is a completely different situation. I love America based on the UA, I love exploring the world the fastest. I figure I make much more money quickly through my discovery of civs/city states. Battlefield information is where it really shines. No one should be able to surprise an American force.
     
  9. Bandobras Took

    Bandobras Took Emperor

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    And have him run out of things to work

    And have Hiawatha settle around you anyway

    Or just get a hill so you can work some real production and get all three sooner over the course of the game.
     
  10. usi

    usi Shogun

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    I buy the argument that the sight bonus can be useful, but I think the tile purchase bonus is super lame. Yeah, it helps blocking borders and getting some resources early. But you know, other civs can do the same thing by paying little extra cash than America does.

    For example, say a player bought 1000 coins worth of tiles with 750 coins as America in an entire game. That would be a lot of tiles - presumably a lot more than a typical prayer would buy - but the total benefit of the UA in this story would be just 250 coins, which is the same as what Arabia with 11 connected cities can earn in 25 turns. And Arabian UA is arguably one of the weakest UAs...
     
  11. Duo

    Duo Stay out of my territory.

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    Honestly, I scarcely find this a problem even on Deity.
     
  12. bryanw1995

    bryanw1995 Emperor

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    the sight bonus is great. i'm playing egypt right now but I have a worker with extra sight. I'm at war with persia, the worker is on a forest/hill surrounded for forest. He's scouting out the entire back of the enemy lines for me every turn. And that's with only 3 sight, an american scout with 10xp can get to 4 sight. put him on a hill and it's like having a caravel on land! the minuteman is ok but on a meh unit and the reduced cost for buying tiles is poor, but it's hard to criticize the extra sight.
     
  13. sesaMe

    sesaMe Chieftain

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    their quite good in multiplayer as vision is always helpful but especially when you have horsemen who are attacking into the fog and you dont know what might be able to counter you. opening scout with america is probably worth an extra 2 goodie huts which means you could say america starts with an earlier social policy and an extra 80 gold.

    i think the real strength is that when you open tradition for some kind of great wall/oligarchy/himjei castle combo is that you can plant a city on your enemy's borders and buy out all the tiles around his land, fencing him in, add forts and great artists to flavour. with monarchy and manifest destiny, the first ring of tiles has a base 5 gold cost. that compared to 30g. its huge. it also means you can by the tile under a unit you are about to attack for an extra 33%/58% combat bonus or buy tiles just to screw with enemy pathing, assuming you have great wall.

    tradition dosent seem to be espically strong compared to liberty/honour but i do think america is one of the most interesting civs to play
     
  14. EverNoob

    EverNoob Prince

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    You have to take into account tile purchases in the beginning of the game, which are the most important tile purchases in terms of city growth.

    For example, the first 4 tiles purchases by America cost 35+40+45+45=165 gold respectively. For another civ it would cost 50-55-60-65=230. Which is a difference of 65 gold. In the first few turns of the game you're making somewhere between 3-7 gold. That 9-21 turns earlier for buying just the first 4 tiles, not counting the fact that the sooner you can buy tiles the sooner reap the benefits from them and acquire even more tiles. If you choose to work production tiles or build more stuff that cost maintenance, it takes even more time to buy tiles.
     
  15. bonafide11

    bonafide11 Worker

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    I don't think America's UA is that weak. The extra vision can be quite nice when exploring in the early game as you can find more goody huts, barbarians, city-states, and other civs. Plus, as others have said, buying cheaper tiles can be useful.
     
  16. stormerne

    stormerne is just a Retired Moderator

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    65 gold saved? Meh. I've already teched to Horseback Riding, am building two horsemen and - amazingly - am buying a third... for 410 gold. 410? How did that happen? :mischief: Easy. But it certainly wasn't through saving 65 gold as the US. :) Meanwhile I'm off devouring the neighboring civs while you're saving your tile discount.

    The point of that is not saying that I'm pursuing a better strategy. A horse rush is common enough, and many people are bored by it. No, I'm saying that your saving is proportionally small, even at the start of the game. And that's not even with choosing Songhai as an alternative.
     
  17. EverNoob

    EverNoob Prince

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    I don't see how teching to HB is related to this since you're not talking in the same time frame. With America you buy the first 4 tiles before turn 20-25...And you've already teched to HB??

    Faster tiles purchases means more population, production, :) resources to sell, etc. All of which would help an early HB strat.
     
  18. Arvantis

    Arvantis Chieftain

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    I play with America often and my expericence is that tile purchase helps alot in all stages of the game.

    I think people just see the monetary benefits of buying land.
    More important is the long term strategy how to build your empire.

    I like larger cities so I settle with more spaces between the cities. In some cities 4 spaces is okay, but in my first cities which i wanna run as Metropolitans, i tend to use 5-6 spaces.
    Now, the fine part of buying land ist that you can expand far away from the capital (good synergy for New York to grow fast and use many tiles later on).

    By this you have some strategic advantages:

    1.) You can block geostrategic points of the map VERY early. I think about maps with choke points like mountains, coasts and rivers.

    2.) You can grab positions with precious luxuries early on.
    Normally you have 2-3 luxuries in the capital's reach.
    But since you expand farer away on the map, you have good chances to get access to your 4th and 5th luxury. Which is another great advantage since many luxiries do not only give many happy faces, you can also sell them to different civs (in other words, you can make multiple times 300 golds by selling sugar, whales, spices and so on).
    So you can refinance your tile investment.

    Oh, and if you have a CS nearby and dont wanna rely on patronage, just expand next to him and grab his luxury tile with land purchase. If you settle right after scout/warrior, you have a good chance of success to get another luxury without relying on patronage.
    And second, you can contain CS. Containing the land mass of CS helps both of you.
    You can protect the CS better against AIs and you can get the better tiles which normallly, the CS would get.


    Sure, the limit is the map itself. If you are alone or the map is too small or there is no geostrategic advantage (btw, thats why i like mountains even if they give zero ressources), then the UA is weaker.
    But that's situational, as many things in Civ5.

    3.) You can increase your chances to get late game ressources.
    The more land you have, the higher your chances are to get many different ressources.
    I made the expericence that I get all my coal, oil and aluminium because i settle so widespreaded with focus on bigger cities.
    So, in the long run, tile purchasing is a good synergy for players who like to have a large land size with large cities running many tiles.
    It's a contrast to the typical ICS (which I really, really hate) and helps players who focus on building up their cities with wonders, buildings and many citizens.

    I run "only" 8-10 cities with the US, but they all are powerhouses. Not at the start, not at the medieval age, but tieh the end of the rennaissance.
    And that's not only a great flavor to the game (to play the US in a historical contrast), it also focuses another gaming style I prefer.

    The Americans are one of my favorite civs.
    Oh, and the B-17 is a very good unit if you ever enjoyed the power of 4-5 bombers with promotions.
    Bombers are very powerful and were my lifesavers againgst Hiawathas modern armors (since even battleships with bombard 3 could only do 1-2 damage to the modern armor).
    Now, the B-17 can run longer and is more reliable than the standard bomber since it can bomb every turn without resting to heal up.
    And the difference between a standard bomber vs the B-17 in city bombardments is HUGE.
    Especially since the AI tends to build up the defence of its cities.

    The minuteman is weak cause the musketeer is weak.
    But the again, it is situational. I had border fights within hills and woods and were VERY glad to have this 2 movements without penalty.

    All in all, it is very difficult to tell if a UA or UU is good or not. It is situational and depends on map, number of enemies, nearby CS, choice of SP (liberty at the start?) luck and so much more.
     
  19. Kerosene31

    Kerosene31 Prince

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    Yes, this is a big advantage when you are fighting with your neighbors for resource tiles.

    Early on it can save you from having to go to war over resources.

    I played a lot of games as America early on and I didn't realize how much this helped until it was gone.
     
  20. neilkaz

    neilkaz King

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    Arvantis...that is a very nice and detailed post.

    I think I'll try America in my next Immortal game. Since I normally only want to win by domination (although I leave all victory conditions open) my games at this level tend to go 350 turns or even more and I expect that I may find B-17's useful, noting that normal basic fighters and bombers seem to be a bit weak to me.

    I also expect that I'll find the added sight to be nice all game.

    thx .. neilkaz ..
     

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