1. We have added a Gift Upgrades feature that allows you to gift an account upgrade to another member, just in time for the holiday season. You can see the gift option when going to the Account Upgrades screen, or on any user profile screen.
    Dismiss Notice

Is Artillery Too Strong?

Discussion in 'Civ5 - General Discussions' started by Marshall Thomas, Jul 4, 2012.

  1. smallfish

    smallfish Immortal

    Joined:
    Oct 1, 2011
    Messages:
    2,968
    Going by recent games, one on Immortal, artillery is actually pretty weak. A single Bomber run can one hit kill an arty, and if AI manages to flank your infantry screen with cavalry/Lancers (and they can and will), that's a nice line of siege units gone right there.
     
  2. Buccaneer

    Buccaneer Deity

    Joined:
    Nov 2, 2001
    Messages:
    3,562
    Again, some people think they are too overpowered, some think they are too weak = so they did it right. Personally, they are perfect as they are and don't need any changes.
     
  3. Olleus

    Olleus Deity

    Joined:
    Oct 30, 2005
    Messages:
    6,478
    Location:
    England
    What I would like to see is some way for modern cities to get a +1 range upgrade from one of the defensive buildings like arsenal or military base. It's tough and expensive to get a city upgraded to that point, but once it reaches it would not be vulnerable to the cheap tactic or bombing it to 1hp from 3 range and then running in with a lancer.
     
  4. tyrael233

    tyrael233 Chieftain

    Joined:
    Aug 8, 2008
    Messages:
    44
    Or some people don't know what they're talking about.

    Artilleries are way overpowered, I always limit myself to only 1 or 2 otherwise it makes the game too easy. Damage vs Cities is fine, but against units its too much.
     
  5. RoadReaction

    RoadReaction Chieftain

    Joined:
    Nov 29, 2005
    Messages:
    17
    Cities are stupidly resilient as it is, build an army.
     
  6. smallfish

    smallfish Immortal

    Joined:
    Oct 1, 2011
    Messages:
    2,968
    Like requiring two or three artillery pieces to kill just a piddy Rifleman is too overpowered?

    Really?

    If anything, people who are saying they are overpowered aren't playing above Prince.
     
  7. tyrael233

    tyrael233 Chieftain

    Joined:
    Aug 8, 2008
    Messages:
    44
    Quick screenshot of my G&K games so far, that prince difficulty, am I right? I'm not trying to show off or anything (still having trouble with Deity), but I'm no prince player.



    Artilleries are massively over-powered if you know how to position them.
     
  8. smallfish

    smallfish Immortal

    Joined:
    Oct 1, 2011
    Messages:
    2,968
    I do apologize then, but

    I've had situations where they are game changers, and situations where they just aren't doing much.

    And even in game changers, you need to bring in four or five to go rolling. And as stated, you need to bring in infantry screens to smash whatever units are left from your barrages.

    Spoiler :


    And guess what? You still lose a ton of units to whatever the AI dishes out (on Immortal, a ton), and the only reason I managed to make that much headway in that game above was because 1) constraining terrain 2) I brought that many Riflemen and was bringing in more 3) Carthaginians can cross that mountain 4) Songhai was slightly below me in tech (really bad game).

    So I'm not seeing how overpowered is overpowered, unless by definition of overpowered you mean "Pyrrhic victory"
     
  9. tyrael233

    tyrael233 Chieftain

    Joined:
    Aug 8, 2008
    Messages:
    44
    You really shouldn't be losing many units if you have a barrage of artilleries, you don't have to rush, just wait for the units to come out to you.

    As you said you were way behind in tech, by the 1900s I'm close to stealth bombers, so of course artilleries aren't impressive at this point.
     
  10. AlextheGr8

    AlextheGr8 Warlord

    Joined:
    Jan 2, 2012
    Messages:
    180
    Artillery should be stronger versus Calvary and soldier units. Weaker against naval.

    Artillery in real life is a game changer, in this game it seems people demand balance more than realism.
     
  11. smallfish

    smallfish Immortal

    Joined:
    Oct 1, 2011
    Messages:
    2,968
    Tell that to the Songhai who kept spamming their own Mandekalu and Riflemen, If I didn't bring in Rifle screen to act as meatbags, his Cavs would have tore my arty (and whatever city-takers I had) to pieces.

    Now if Songhai had artillery, there would never been a chance for me. Zero.

    Artillery cuts both ways.

    Yeah, I was busy taking out tech leader in the early game (close to a 100 turns, starting from T100), no time to crank out unis when you are just getting into Medieval and Sejong is in Renaissance and getting ready to runaway.

    Plus, no iron. This continent only had 3 irons, and it wasn't me or Askia.


    e: also I would like to add that I had Himeji (took it from Sejong's last city) and that was pushing into Songhai lands with Himeji. Without it...
     
  12. fenwayb

    fenwayb Chieftain

    Joined:
    May 30, 2012
    Messages:
    54
    you realize the point of the *entire* combat system overhaul was that you couldn't one-shot units, right?
     
  13. smallfish

    smallfish Immortal

    Joined:
    Oct 1, 2011
    Messages:
    2,968
    Pretty much, and just so I wasn't clear, this is already something good.
     
  14. fenwayb

    fenwayb Chieftain

    Joined:
    May 30, 2012
    Messages:
    54
    I'm confused. Every post you've made in this thread is essentially "they're already pretty useless because they can't one-shot units".
     
  15. StormEye

    StormEye Chieftain

    Joined:
    Jun 27, 2012
    Messages:
    93
    I do believe he means that it has gotten weaker now that the hp system has changed.
     
  16. smallfish

    smallfish Immortal

    Joined:
    Oct 1, 2011
    Messages:
    2,968
    Certainly they are, that's why you don't just rely on artillery.;)

    In hindsight though, using useless was a bit too strong. Lackluster would fit better. They aren't the punchy units the way they were in Vanilla, but this is where you bring in other units to complement them and by jingo then they are great.


    e: a summation of my point would be "artillery is fine as it is, and overpowered comes with situation"
     
  17. machival

    machival Chieftain

    Joined:
    Jun 23, 2012
    Messages:
    41
    What does that have to do with anything? For starters, Deity AI is the very same with Prince AI. Deity = handicaps. Not better AI. Please understand this. What this means is that things must be balanced for Prince (normal) difficulty.

    As for the artilery, my take is this : it is the vampire of Civ during it's era. Cities are helpless against it when it appears. If somebody gets artilery before his neighbour, = GG. (even multiplayer). So yes they are extremely strong, but on the other hand, maybe that is the way they should be. So my vote : not overpowered, just don't fall behind in tech or you lose to it. Same with Modern Armor or Nukes or Stealth Bombers.
     
  18. smallfish

    smallfish Immortal

    Joined:
    Oct 1, 2011
    Messages:
    2,968
    Though this is far from topic, I felt it was an adequate rejoinder to someone claiming "I don't know what I'm talking about" or some such.:)

    And anyways, this is what I've noticed - the AI when given the advantages needed will be better adapt at handling the human mind. It's still not sufficient, but the difference between being able to spam out a carrier group (complete with battleships, submarines, aircrafts, nukes etc.) in a span of three turns (compared to normal's ten turns) is certainly vast enough to make it more aggressive and daring than on Prince.

    It simply cannot compete with the human mind otherwise. So if you ask me does higher difficulties make better AIs, I would say yes - because its been given the tools needed to at least compete (or show a semblance thereof).
     
  19. glider1

    glider1 Deity

    Joined:
    May 29, 2006
    Messages:
    2,784
    Location:
    Where animals hop not run
    Could I ask you this about Artillery then. Are you tending to play the same game style game after game on the higher levels?:

    1. always start out being out-teched
    2. always beeline to artillery
    3. always try to use artillery to break even with the AI

    Cheers
     
  20. smallfish

    smallfish Immortal

    Joined:
    Oct 1, 2011
    Messages:
    2,968
    Nope, unless you switch off all victories except Domination.:)

    I didn't catch up at all. In fact, I lost that game to Roman diplo victory. And I never got "start being out teched" - the entire game was me getting consistently out teched and out gunned. Like I gave in example, the only reason I managed to hammer the Songhai was because they forgot to go pretty deep into the bottom techs (ie. Artillery/Cavalry, they were still spamming Mandekalus!). Had the Songhai had artillery, I would not have been able to push through the terrain without some serious game changers (like Bombers). Had I tried it with the Romans or Danes, that would have been the end of my empire even if its on its own continent.

    So no, artillery is not the end all. Its extremely situational, and if your foes have them too, you can expect a stalemate. There's nothing "overpowered" about it.
     

Share This Page