Is Artillery Too Strong?

Going by recent games, one on Immortal, artillery is actually pretty weak. A single Bomber run can one hit kill an arty, and if AI manages to flank your infantry screen with cavalry/Lancers (and they can and will), that's a nice line of siege units gone right there.
 
Again, some people think they are too overpowered, some think they are too weak = so they did it right. Personally, they are perfect as they are and don't need any changes.
 
What I would like to see is some way for modern cities to get a +1 range upgrade from one of the defensive buildings like arsenal or military base. It's tough and expensive to get a city upgraded to that point, but once it reaches it would not be vulnerable to the cheap tactic or bombing it to 1hp from 3 range and then running in with a lancer.
 
Again, some people think they are too overpowered, some think they are too weak = so they did it right. Personally, they are perfect as they are and don't need any changes.

Or some people don't know what they're talking about.

Artilleries are way overpowered, I always limit myself to only 1 or 2 otherwise it makes the game too easy. Damage vs Cities is fine, but against units its too much.
 
What I would like to see is some way for modern cities to get a +1 range upgrade from one of the defensive buildings like arsenal or military base. It's tough and expensive to get a city upgraded to that point, but once it reaches it would not be vulnerable to the cheap tactic or bombing it to 1hp from 3 range and then running in with a lancer.

Cities are stupidly resilient as it is, build an army.
 
Or some people don't know what they're talking about.

Artilleries are way overpowered, I always limit myself to only 1 or 2 otherwise it makes the game too easy. Damage vs Cities is fine, but against units its too much.

Like requiring two or three artillery pieces to kill just a piddy Rifleman is too overpowered?

Really?

If anything, people who are saying they are overpowered aren't playing above Prince.
 
Like requiring two or three artillery pieces to kill just a piddy Rifleman is too overpowered?

Really?

If anything, people who are saying they are overpowered aren't playing above Prince.

Quick screenshot of my G&K games so far, that prince difficulty, am I right? I'm not trying to show off or anything (still having trouble with Deity), but I'm no prince player.



Artilleries are massively over-powered if you know how to position them.
 
I do apologize then, but

Artilleries are massively over-powered if you know how to position them.

I've had situations where they are game changers, and situations where they just aren't doing much.

And even in game changers, you need to bring in four or five to go rolling. And as stated, you need to bring in infantry screens to smash whatever units are left from your barrages.

Spoiler :


And guess what? You still lose a ton of units to whatever the AI dishes out (on Immortal, a ton), and the only reason I managed to make that much headway in that game above was because 1) constraining terrain 2) I brought that many Riflemen and was bringing in more 3) Carthaginians can cross that mountain 4) Songhai was slightly below me in tech (really bad game).

So I'm not seeing how overpowered is overpowered, unless by definition of overpowered you mean "Pyrrhic victory"
 
I do apologize then, but



I've had situations where they are game changers, and situations where they just aren't doing much.

And even in game changers, you need to bring in four or five to go rolling. And as stated, you need to bring in infantry screens to smash whatever units are left from your barrages.

Spoiler :


And guess what? You still lose a ton of units to whatever the AI dishes out (on Immortal, a ton), and the only reason I managed to make that much headway in that game above was because 1) constraining terrain 2) I brought that many Riflemen and was bringing in more 3) Carthaginians can cross that mountain 4) Songhai was slightly below me in tech (really bad game).

So I'm not seeing how overpowered is overpowered, unless by definition of overpowered you mean "Pyrrhic victory"

You really shouldn't be losing many units if you have a barrage of artilleries, you don't have to rush, just wait for the units to come out to you.

As you said you were way behind in tech, by the 1900s I'm close to stealth bombers, so of course artilleries aren't impressive at this point.
 
Artillery should be stronger versus Calvary and soldier units. Weaker against naval.

Artillery in real life is a game changer, in this game it seems people demand balance more than realism.
 
You really shouldn't be losing many units if you have a barrage of artilleries, you don't have to rush, just wait for the units to come out to you.

Tell that to the Songhai who kept spamming their own Mandekalu and Riflemen, If I didn't bring in Rifle screen to act as meatbags, his Cavs would have tore my arty (and whatever city-takers I had) to pieces.

Now if Songhai had artillery, there would never been a chance for me. Zero.

Artillery cuts both ways.

tyrael233 said:
As you said you were way behind in tech, by the 1900s I'm close to stealth bombers, so of course artilleries aren't impressive at this point.

Yeah, I was busy taking out tech leader in the early game (close to a 100 turns, starting from T100), no time to crank out unis when you are just getting into Medieval and Sejong is in Renaissance and getting ready to runaway.

Plus, no iron. This continent only had 3 irons, and it wasn't me or Askia.


e: also I would like to add that I had Himeji (took it from Sejong's last city) and that was pushing into Songhai lands with Himeji. Without it...
 
Like requiring two or three artillery pieces to kill just a piddy Rifleman is too overpowered?

Really?

If anything, people who are saying they are overpowered aren't playing above Prince.

you realize the point of the *entire* combat system overhaul was that you couldn't one-shot units, right?
 
you realize the point of the *entire* combat system overhaul was that you couldn't one-shot units, right?

Pretty much, and just so I wasn't clear, this is already something good.
 
Pretty much, and just so I wasn't clear, this is already something good.

I'm confused. Every post you've made in this thread is essentially "they're already pretty useless because they can't one-shot units".
 
I do believe he means that it has gotten weaker now that the hp system has changed.
 
I'm confused. Every post you've made in this thread is essentially "they're already pretty useless because they can't one-shot units".

Certainly they are, that's why you don't just rely on artillery.;)

In hindsight though, using useless was a bit too strong. Lackluster would fit better. They aren't the punchy units the way they were in Vanilla, but this is where you bring in other units to complement them and by jingo then they are great.


e: a summation of my point would be "artillery is fine as it is, and overpowered comes with situation"
 
Like requiring two or three artillery pieces to kill just a piddy Rifleman is too overpowered?

Really?

If anything, people who are saying they are overpowered aren't playing above Prince.

What does that have to do with anything? For starters, Deity AI is the very same with Prince AI. Deity = handicaps. Not better AI. Please understand this. What this means is that things must be balanced for Prince (normal) difficulty.

As for the artilery, my take is this : it is the vampire of Civ during it's era. Cities are helpless against it when it appears. If somebody gets artilery before his neighbour, = GG. (even multiplayer). So yes they are extremely strong, but on the other hand, maybe that is the way they should be. So my vote : not overpowered, just don't fall behind in tech or you lose to it. Same with Modern Armor or Nukes or Stealth Bombers.
 
What does that have to do with anything? For starters, Deity AI is the very same with Prince AI. Deity = handicaps. Not better AI. Please understand this. What this means is that things must be balanced for Prince (normal) difficulty.

Though this is far from topic, I felt it was an adequate rejoinder to someone claiming "I don't know what I'm talking about" or some such.:)

And anyways, this is what I've noticed - the AI when given the advantages needed will be better adapt at handling the human mind. It's still not sufficient, but the difference between being able to spam out a carrier group (complete with battleships, submarines, aircrafts, nukes etc.) in a span of three turns (compared to normal's ten turns) is certainly vast enough to make it more aggressive and daring than on Prince.

It simply cannot compete with the human mind otherwise. So if you ask me does higher difficulties make better AIs, I would say yes - because its been given the tools needed to at least compete (or show a semblance thereof).
 
So if you ask me does higher difficulties make better AIs, I would say yes - because its been given the tools needed to at least compete (or show a semblance thereof).

Could I ask you this about Artillery then. Are you tending to play the same game style game after game on the higher levels?:

1. always start out being out-teched
2. always beeline to artillery
3. always try to use artillery to break even with the AI

Cheers
 
Could I ask you this about Artillery then. Are you tending to play the same game style game after game on the higher levels?:

Nope, unless you switch off all victories except Domination.:)

glider1 said:
1. start out being out-teched
2. beeline to artillery
3. catch up via conquest
4. win

The point is that if artillery are too overpowered in the sense that humans are far far better at using them, this will manifest in a distorted game progression. We are trying to minimize distortions.

I didn't catch up at all. In fact, I lost that game to Roman diplo victory. And I never got "start being out teched" - the entire game was me getting consistently out teched and out gunned. Like I gave in example, the only reason I managed to hammer the Songhai was because they forgot to go pretty deep into the bottom techs (ie. Artillery/Cavalry, they were still spamming Mandekalus!). Had the Songhai had artillery, I would not have been able to push through the terrain without some serious game changers (like Bombers). Had I tried it with the Romans or Danes, that would have been the end of my empire even if its on its own continent.

So no, artillery is not the end all. Its extremely situational, and if your foes have them too, you can expect a stalemate. There's nothing "overpowered" about it.
 
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