Is Britain about to leave the EU?

[Arwon]

It seems very clearly that it probably can negate it tbh.

 

[Kyriakos]

It seems very clearly that it probably can negate it tbh.

Imo this is wishful thinking on your part. And:

^Agreed.

Let alone that Scottish parliament blocking UK leaving the EU after UK votes to leave, would be analogous to UK parliament blocking Scotland leaving UK.

It is irresponsible, at best. She should just prepare for a future Scotxit from the KU.

Scotland voted in favor of remaining, but their entire population is only 1/6th of the UK. Let alone counting the 38-40% (or thereabouts?) in Scotland itself voting to leave.

 

[Ajidica]

This can be gotten without being on the public eye.

Personally i think Sturgeon just messed up in this issue. It cannot negate the Brexit vote, so it can only extend the current state of WTH.

That could very well be her plan. The UK hasn't invoked Article 50 yet so in legal terms there is no Brexit. If she -and others- can extent the current WTH legal state it might convince whoever becomes MP -either Johnson or Gove- to just let the whole thing die in committee.


EDIT:

I will wait for when someone there offers the brilliant idea to have a referendum on whether the result of the first referendum must be accepted.

Isn't that what Greece did during the Bailout negotiations? Hold a second election to determine if the first election should be trusted?

 

[Kyriakos]

That could very well be her plan. The UK hasn't invoked Article 50 yet so in legal terms there is no Brexit. If she -and others- can extent the current WTH legal state it might convince whoever becomes MP -either Johnson or Gove- to just let the whole thing die in committee.

Yes, that could be a plan of MPs and other individuals. Yet there is the minor issue of the public voting to leave.

I will wait for when someone there offers the brilliant idea to have a referendum on whether the result of the first referendum must be accepted.

Meanwhile, the farce continues differently in the Eu-central, for there the Uk already is de facto outside of the Eu, and all that remains is the negotiation to start for the official terms. Not sure how anyone can think this can turn around and even these people saying 'oh well, back to the previous things'

 

[Akka]

Prominent Leave campaigner and cabinet minister Theresa Villiers, writing in the Observer, dismissed the calls. “There is no need to plunge into tabling article 50 now, whatever [European commission president] Mr Juncker may want,” she writes, referring to the trigger for formal Brexit negotiations. “The period of informal negotiation prior to an article 50 process will be crucial and should not be rushed.”

Do I really need to add anything ?

 

[Kyriakos]

EDIT:
Isn't that what Greece did during the Bailout negotiations? Hold a second election to determine if the first election should be trusted?

No, the Syriza gov was elected to run its program, it wasn't allowed to, so there was a referendum. We did vote overwhelmingly in support of a new deal, a logical one. The rest (over-turn, due to "we will send humanitarian aid, this is not blackmail though") is history.

Here we have a referendum on Leave or Stay. Not an election with a party pledge. Nor a referendum with an Accept or Decline "this offered deal". Not seeing how you view the above as parallel, tbh. If our own referendum was "accept this deal or leave" and 'not accept and therefore leave' had got the majority of the vote, then yes, we should/would have left.

 

[Arwon]

Imo this is wishful thinking on your part.

I gave a source from an official UK parliamentary committee. What's yours?

 

[HAND]

Posted the House of Lords European Union Committee report extract two posts above. The argument is that EU law is embedded in the devolved parliaments of Scotland, NI and Wales and so to have the application of EU law be extinguished would require those bodies' consent.

I would assume the only alternative would be if Westminister is still permitted to amend the Scottish devolution legislation. Which would be pretty dicey.

When you create a de facto federation, things like that tend to emerge from it.

Scotland should probably go for another independence referendum. It would be rather hypocritical to drag England and Wales with them in that regard. The poignant question might be what happens to Northern Ireland? A more complicated settlement might be needed there.

 

[Kyriakos]

I gave a source from an official UK parliamentary committee. What's yours?

Didn't you read it?

Scottish parliament cannot deny UK a vote, cause it is not running UK. If it could happen, then so could British parliament deny Scotland becoming independent regardless of what it voted.
This isn't a new idea, even the Bbc articles today on this mention this among other reasons this scottish parliament vote cannot have a result of negating the Uk vote.

http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-36633244

Could Scotland block Brexit?

By BBC Scotland's political editor Brian Taylor

I think Holyrood blocking Brexit is unlikely in that the power arises because the Scottish Parliament has to implement European legislation.

It is not a power that arises with regard to the things that matter, which is the single market and the EU treaties.

I also think that politically there would be a huge resentment from Westminster and England.

If, for example, Scotland had voted "Yes" to independence in 2014 and the Westminster parliament used the blocking mechanism to stop that, one can understand the anger in that regard.

It is a possible political scenario, but in terms of it being a likely political scenario, I think not.

etc, the article has other points too.

 

[Arwon]

The question of whether it will withhold consent and whether it can are different ones. What you have posted speaks to various political possibilities, not the existence of the actual power. I have only engaged on the question of capacity.

 

[Kyriakos]

The question of whether it will and whether it can are different ones. What you have posted speaks to political possibilities, not the actual powers.

"It cannot negate the Brexit vote" is about what happens, m8. It is not about arcane or ambiguous rules and theories, but about what can actually take place. This is the usual meaning of 'can', let alone that the context makes this the sole meaning of poignancy, no?

Anyway, i am all in favour of people in the UK or parts of it being fine and well. I am not deciding what happens, i am merely noting why this side-debate on Scottish veto is not realistic imo.

 

[Arwon]

Again, I have only offered a view and evidence on the probable existence of the requirement for Scottish parliamentary consent. You're free to post whatever you'd like to, but it hasn't engaged with what I've said.

 

[luiz]

At this point I think if a legal maneuver somehow stopped Brexit it would be really bad for the EU, as it would reinforce the populist argument that whatever the people vote, they get "more Europe".

The EU now needs to insist for the UK to get out, and fast. And I think that's exactly what they will do.

 

[Atticus]

No, the Syriza gov was elected to run its program, it wasn't allowed to, so there was a referendum. We did vote overwhelmingly in support of a new deal, a logical one. The rest (over-turn, due to "we will send humanitarian aid, this is not blackmail though") is history.

Here we have a referendum on Leave or Stay. Not an election with a party pledge. Nor a referendum with an Accept or Decline "this offered deal". Not seeing how you view the above as parallel, tbh. If our own referendum was "accept this deal or leave" and 'not accept and therefore leave' had got the majority of the vote, then yes, we should/would have left.

That's the referendum you should have had though. That way Syriza would have had something to bargain with. In reality they really didn't have anything else than the collateral damage to euro for Greece going bankrupt.

 

[innonimatu]

At this point I think if a legal maneuver somehow stopped Brexit it would be really bad for the EU, as it would reinforce the populist argument that whatever the people vote, they get "more Europe".

I'm hoping for that. And things seem to be aligning towards it: the ongoing attempt to oust Corbyn is the only way Labour would go along with it, as he already called for Article 50 to be activated immediately. Wether it happens or not... I'll give my opinion later tonight when the results of Spain's election come in.

 

[luiz]

I'm hoping for that. And things seem to be aligning towards it: the ongoing attempt to oust Corbyn is the only way Labour would go along with it, as he already called for Article 50 to be activated immediately. Wether it happens or not... I'll give my opinion later tonight when the results of Spain's election come in.

Why would you hope for that? I think it would be bad for both those who like the EU and those who don't.

The majority has spoken, now it's time to organize Britain's departure as soon as possible. This is in the best interests of indepententists and EU-backers alike.

 

[Verbose]

Didn't you read it?

Scottish parliament cannot deny UK a vote, cause it is not running UK. If it could happen, then so could British parliament deny Scotland becoming independent regardless of what it voted.

Westminster absolutely can deny Scotland to hold a referendum. All it has to do is say "No", and face the consequences.

 

[Kyriakos]

Westminster absolutely can deny Scotland to hold a referendum. All it has to do is say "No", and face the consequences.

The analogous is more on the lines of Scotland having a referendum, voting to leave, and Westminster saying it does not allow it. Here the Uk public voted to leave, of which Scotland has 1/6th, and not all of that 1/6th voted for Remain either.

Why would you hope for that? I think it would be bad for both those who like the EU and those who don't.

The majority has spoken, now it's time to organize Britain's departure as soon as possible. This is in the best interests of indepententists and EU-backers alike.

Inno means he hopes there is no turning back from the Leave vote. And yes, even if some gov people in Eulandia also wanted that, it would make them look even more clownish than before.

Imo the Brexit WTH stage will be followed by a different phase, unless more WTH happens (not tied to Britain) soon.
Nice point by Innonimatu re Corbyn and his stance on article 50...!

 

[Snorrius]

Churchill supported Franco and Thatcher supported Pinochet.

What's wrong with that? Franco and Pinochet were decent rulers. At least, they did not try to implement economy solutions like "Let's nationalize property of bad capitalists!" or "Let's print a lot of monies and make everyone rich!" And Franco, we should not forget, restored monarchy, so he is obviously good guy.

Chavez, as well as his successor, was ridiculous.

 

[Traitorfish]

But her main difficulty is selling the idea of having Scotland both independent and a dependent part of the EU - it is a contradition, one that several other "regionalists" across the EU have fallen into years ago and never solved.

45% for independence within the EU. 60% for remaining in the EU one way or the other. Does't seem like the proposition is wildly contrary to public opinion in the country.