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Is Bush confined to the USA ?

Discussion in 'Off-Topic' started by otago, Feb 11, 2011.

  1. Brian Shanahan

    Brian Shanahan Permanoob

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    I hope the European judiciary have the balls to arrest him. It would be a major victory both for morality and the rule of law.
     
  2. MobBoss

    MobBoss Off-Topic Overlord

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    Albeit a phyrric victory at best. At worst an utter disaster for the country that tries it.
     
  3. Gogf

    Gogf Indescribable

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    No, that would be completely ********. Thankfully there is a 0% chance of it happening.
     
  4. MobBoss

    MobBoss Off-Topic Overlord

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    Your own link talks about the waterboarding happening at the 'secret CIA locations'.

    That wouldnt be Gitmo.

    You ask me for links, but its right there in the one you just provided. Go figure.

    I dont think anyone is denying that, are they?

    What they will argue is that under the definition they were using, waterboarding wasnt defined as torture.
     
  5. Lone Wolf

    Lone Wolf Deity

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    In the We$t, all judiciary is controlled by the corporate overlords:gripe:
    Anyway, I predict that Bush, despite deserving a good spanking, will not be confined to the USA at all.
     
  6. El_Machinae

    El_Machinae Colour vision since 2018 Retired Moderator

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    Doesn't the OP put it at 100%? Now we're only seeing which specific percentage of cases, in total, it happens. How many times will Bush refuse to travel to the EU because of EU moral standards? Only once? Or more than once?
     
  7. Ajidica

    Ajidica High Quality Person

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    So you are now smarter then the CIA who subjected the victim to waterboarding?
    http://www.independent.co.uk/news/w...--i-did-it-myself-says-us-advisor-398490.html

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010/nov/09/george-bush-memoirs-waterboarding
    Apparently our strongest ally also considers waterboarding torture.

    And again, from the CAT:
    I think we can all agree waterboarding qualifies as 'severe'. If it was good enough for the Inquisition and the Khemer Rouge, it is severe.
     
  8. sonorakitch

    sonorakitch Overseas hunter

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    We can? Again, it's so ambiguous. What defines severe? Lasting physical damage, right? Lasting mental damage, right? And what is lasting? A week? A month?

    The problem with any argument for or against the waterboarding technique is that it's very much a gray area. Interpretation of the actual international law is difficult in this case (as is much within "international law"---and even our own Constitution!).

    In order to draw a line, actual standards should be set for what defines "severe". I'm pretty sure that had the law specifically outlawed the use of simulated drowning, another "gray" technique would have been used instead.
     
  9. Mr. Dictator

    Mr. Dictator A Chain-Smoking Fox

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    I believe that its used for the very fact that it fits in the grey area. Would say something about the mindset of those "patriot" worms who perpetrate it.

    Once I waterboarded myself in the shower, by placing a hand rag on my face, and getting under the water. If it didn't last only for the split second I allowed it to before gasping for air, I would say anything to stop it. So how does that make it effective, even ignoring the fact that its morally reprehensible?
     
  10. El_Machinae

    El_Machinae Colour vision since 2018 Retired Moderator

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    Um, interpreting the criminality of waterboarding within criminal law was pretty easy in US law. There had been convictions for waterboarding already issued. Ostensibly, the reason why it was performed in the locations that it was, was to create legal limbo regarding the status of the prisoners.

    That the torture was sufficient to violate their rights is not really in doubt. The assumption was that the legal limbo would prevent them from having the specific rights. This assumption was incorrect.

    The legal writing suggesting that waterboarding might be legal have been repudiated at (iirc) every stage of review. Waterboarding is an illegal torture technique, and was when it was performed.

    Ignorance of the law is no defense.
     
  11. Formaldehyde

    Formaldehyde Both Fair And Balanced

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    Expecially after the US tried and convicted Japanese soldiers for exactly the same "war crimes" after WWII. The only thing "gray" about this is why Obama decided not to prosecute GWB himself after becoming president.
     
  12. MobBoss

    MobBoss Off-Topic Overlord

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    Uh, the guy you bolded wasnt from the CIA. :rolleyes:

    Also, where did I say opinion on it would be absolute? I didnt.

    We dont always agree on everything with them, strongest ally or not.

    Does it cause severe pain?

    No.

    Severe suffering?

    Defintely arguable.

    I would say it causes an uncontrollable fear response. But thats not necessarily the same thing as severe suffering.

    Lol at Dictator waterboarding himself in the shower....rofl.

    That was only part of what they did, and they were assuredly tried and convicted for more than just that.
     
  13. JollyRoger

    JollyRoger Slippin' Jimmy Supporter

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    Yeah, I wouldn't classify the Tea Partiers at suffering severely under the Obama Administration.
     
  14. Mr. Dictator

    Mr. Dictator A Chain-Smoking Fox

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    I prefer to be the one who knows what they're talking about on conversations like this. Its fun, should you ever take a shot at it. :mischief:
     
  15. Formaldehyde

    Formaldehyde Both Fair And Balanced

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    What an incredibly disingenuous statement. Is it a horrific war crime, or not? Were numerous Japanese soldiers found gulty of waterboarding and convicted of war crimes as a direct result, or not?

    Waterboarding Used to Be a Crime

     
  16. JollyRoger

    JollyRoger Slippin' Jimmy Supporter

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    But see, they were convicted of more than just waterboarding. It's like the murderer who is also convicted at jaywalking. The murder conviction really doesn't count because it is lumped in there with the jaywalking.
     
  17. MobBoss

    MobBoss Off-Topic Overlord

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    So, if we were talking about heart surgery, you would....???

    :lol:

    Again, you doing what you did in the shower equates to real waterboarding about as much as peewee football does with the NFL. Kinda sorta, but not really.

    Its not hard to understand why waterboarding does what it does. The real question is does it actually harm you, mentally or physically when it happens. I think its unique in that regard that it probably doesnt.

    And sure, there will be people that will argue that either way. Thats why we are having this dicussion right now. I dont think we would be doing that if they had used the rack, or the iron maiden, hot tongs, blowtorch, thumb screws, or any of that other kind of stuff.

    @Form. Again, you make my point for me with a link:

    Please refer to the word highlighted. Does that in any way mean they were prosecuted solely for using waterboard as a technique? Nope.

    Another very nice self-goal.

    Further. Your link even goes as far to say that waterboarding isnt painful. Certainly not severly painful. Nice.
     
  18. El_Machinae

    El_Machinae Colour vision since 2018 Retired Moderator

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    Huh?
    If the charges include specific crimes, and the judge convicts of those crimes, each of the charges is actually its own criminal offense. Aggravating factors are not included in the actual official list of specific convictions, even though they're a factor in sentencing.

    A file of convictions that results in a lump sentence (or concurrent sentence) is still considered to be different offenses. The person is still considered guilty of each individual crime.

    edit: oh. I see. You were mocking a legal misunderstanding upthread.
    :pat:
     
  19. amadeus

    amadeus As seen on OT

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    :lol: at using Col. Nielsen's testimony. I don't doubt that it happened, I just mean that we're talking about how wrong it is to waterboard someone when one of the citations is a guy that dropped bombs indiscriminately on civilians and Formaldehyde's problem is the waterboarding part. :lol:
     
  20. Formaldehyde

    Formaldehyde Both Fair And Balanced

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    In other words, you are bringing up an obvious red herring instead of even trying to address the real issues? Not to mention you are strawmanning my clearly stated opposition to any sort of deliberate "collateral damage". Are you channeling your new avatar?
     

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