Is Bush confined to the USA ?

[ParadigmShifter]

What do you want to do to them? And why shouldn't we apply it to GWB, who has killed far more?

 

[Me,myself,and,I]

What do you want to do to them? And why shouldn't we apply it to GWB, who has killed far more?

I think that water boarding is perfectly fine if it will save innocent lives. Bush did NOT kill civilians if that is your assertion then I will end my foray into the off-topic thread here and now.

 

[Formaldehyde]

Fortunately the current president disagrees with your personal opinion about waterboarding, as does the vast majority of the rest of the civilized world.

Other Americans who thought they were acting under GWB's orders certainly did murder completely innocent civilians through various means of torture.

And who knows how many were murdered by the secret police of countries such as Egypt? They have already admitted to taking 60-70 of GWB's victims by 2005. I doubt any of them were ever heard of again.

 

[ParadigmShifter]

I think that water boarding is perfectly fine if it will save innocent lives. Bush did NOT kill civilians if that is your assertion then I will end my foray into the off-topic thread here and now.

Shock and awe?

 

[Me,myself,and,I]

other americans who thought they were acting under his orders certainly did murder civilians through torture.

And who knows how many were murdered by the secret police of countries such as egypt? They have already admitted to taking 60-70 of gwb's victims by 2005. I doubt any of them were ever heard of again.

none of them were civilians they were jihadist combatants and would kill you or me or most of us here!

We did not go into Iraq and murder civilians.

If we really were murdering innocent civilians I would be clamoring for impeachment.

 

[Silurian]

EUROPEAN CENTER FOR CONSTITUTIONAL AND HUMAN RIGHTS link below of part of draft of two Complaints to be Filed Against George W. Bush for Torture

http://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&so...0fygDA&usg=AFQjCNFtkQI6TQcOZArnv6o9OhGrK1M4Yg

 

[ParadigmShifter]

Except that little girl who had 2 legs and an arm blown off, who we treated in a uK hospital.

 

[Me,myself,and,I]

Except that little girl who had 2 legs and an arm blown off, who we treated in a uK hospital.

I feel very sorry for her, but that is a side effect of war, that was not deliberate. Does any nation in the world besides us pay for the damage we do in a war?

 

[Brian Shanahan]

Like I edited on above. Ooh you have a minor mental scar (At worst) well I'm sorry that must be way worse then what you did to all those civilians you murdered for worshipping a different god.

Like I said I don't want to go half as far as say the inquisition, I don't want to maim them, or gouge their eyes out or anything.

Grow up for a minute. If you advocate torture that is exactly what you will do. This is not an episode of 24 where the Caucasians are the good guys and the Arabs irredimably evil. What you are doing is an evil and will become the end of itself, taking over your whole life until you cannot stop.

And also look at the effects, now you have the family and friends of the person you took without reason or justification hating your guts because of the evils you have unleashed, and wanting to revisit to you a thousand fold. The escalation keeps going until... Well look at the opening to any of the Fallout games and you'll get a pretty accurate picture.

On your assertion that you do not kill civilians, how wrong you are. And let me pose a question to you, if your country was invaded, and you saw your mother killed by a bomb dropped from 50,000 feet, your father taken away to be tortured and sodomised because he looked at one of the invaders crooked, your sister gang-raped by another group, and every last valuable asset of your country plundered in the name of "democracy" would you not want to fight back, would you not want to kill the enemy, would you not want to have your hands on an AK to send them fleeing into the sea from whence they came? Hypocrite.

 

[Formaldehyde]

none of them were civilians they were jihadist combatants and would kill you or me or most of us here!.

I've already posted details in this thread how Americans did exactly that in Baghram, which the US military now admits. And I seriously doubt that was the only case.

There have likely been hundreds of innocent people who have been murdered so far by the US and our allies in this war of terror.

We did not go into Iraq and murder civilians.

Civilians were likely murdered in Iraq. I think it is rather far-fetched to think that was the only exception, especially given Abu Ghraib.

If we really were murdering innocent civilians I would be clamoring for impeachment.

You missed your chance.

 

[Me,myself,and,I]

Grow up for a minute. If you advocate torture that is exactly what you will do. This is not an episode of 24 where the Caucasians are the good guys and the Arabs irredimably evil. What you are doing is an evil and will become the end of itself, taking over your whole life until you cannot stop.

And also look at the effects, now you have the family and friends of the person you took without reason or justification hating your guts because of the evils you have unleashed, and wanting to revisit to you a thousand fold. The escalation keeps going until... Well look at the opening to any of the Fallout games and you'll get a pretty accurate picture.

I'm not talking about torturing random people taken without reason. I am talking about water boarding and other frightening but not wounding methods used on ENEMY COMBATANTS. People who murder civilians.

 

[Me,myself,and,I]

I've already posted details in this thread how Americans did exactly that in Baghram, which the US military now admits. And I seriously doubt that was the only case.

There have likely been hudreds of innocent people who have been murdered so far by the US and our allies in this war of terror.

Civilians were likely murdered in Iraq. I think it is rather far-fetched to think that was the only exception, especially given Abu Ghraib.

You missed your chance.

Wow just wow.

Alright I'm sticking to the main forums from now on.

 

[Ajidica]

I think that water boarding is perfectly fine if it will save innocent lives.

Not allowed under the UN Convention Against Torture that we ratified in 1994. Nice to know you hold the law in such high esteem.

Bush did NOT kill civilians if that is your assertion then I will end my foray into the off-topic thread here and now.

Okay!

Furthermore, how do you proove someone is an enemy combatant without going through a trial first? Individuals are almost always presumed innocent until proven guilty (I can't remember if that is in the Declaration of Human Rights or not.) in western common law. Remember, accusation is not proof.

 

[Formaldehyde]

I'm not talking about torturing random people taken without reason. I am talking about water boarding and other frightening but not wounding methods used on ENEMY COMBATANTS. People who murder civilians.

The trouble is that the vast majority of Muslims detained in our war of terror were completely innocent. Most have already been released long ago after they were tortured by various means, including waterboarding and even genital mutilation.

 

[Brian Shanahan]

I'm not talking about torturing random people taken without reason. I am talking about water boarding and other frightening but not wounding methods used on ENEMY COMBATANTS. People who murder civilians.

No you're talking about torturing random people, nothing else. If you cannot see that then you deserve nothing more from me than disdain.

 

[Silurian]

I'm not talking about torturing random people taken without reason. I am talking about water boarding and other frightening but not wounding methods used on ENEMY COMBATANTS. People who murder civilians.

Do you think that it is ok to torture people by slicing there penis with razor blades.
Then let them heal.
Then do it again.

 

[MobBoss]

He has similarly compared waterboarding to a 'bad day at the pool'.

I guess you never saw bullies at the pool hold smaller kids forcefully under water until they panic. I have. Thats as close to waterboarding as that one allegation was with the water hose.

On your assertion that you do not kill civilians, how wrong you are.

Collateral damage occurring as part of open warfare isnt murder...which is what is being widely alledged in this thread.

Do you think that it is ok to torture people by slicing there penis with razor blades.
Then let them heal.
Then do it again.

And what is this in reference to?

 

[Ajidica]

I guess you never saw bullies at the pool hold smaller kids forcefully under water until they panic. I have. Thats as close to waterboarding as that one allegation was with the water hose.

An experiance everyone has had is strong enough to break terrorists in minutes and when our special forces are trained to deal with it, doctors must be on hand? We must have some pansy terrorists and special forces.
I would also like to ask, why do you believe your opinion as a layperson trump the opinion of medical and psychological proffesionals who have done studies confirming their opinion that waterboarding is torture?

I suppose it is torture when the Khemer Rouge does it, but enhanced interrogation when the US does it.

 

[MobBoss]

An experiance everyone has had is strong enough to break terrorists in minutes and when our special forces are trained to deal with it, doctors must be on hand? We must have some pansy terrorists and special forces.

What makes the technique effective is a fear response in relation to drowning.

Do you think its only waterboarding that can trigger that response? Really?

The response is what it is regardless of the path taken to achieve it. Should be a no-brainer to comprehend that actually.

I would also like to ask, why do you believe your opinion as a layperson trump the opinion of medical and psychological proffesionals who have done studies confirming their opinion that waterboarding is torture?

I never said it did. However, as in all things, there are professionals on both sides of the fence on this (and some in the middle as well).

Its simply not as cut and dried an issue as naysayers would let on.

I suppose it is torture when the Khemer Rouge does it, but enhanced interrogation when the US does it.

The Khemer Rouge also stuck bamboo rods under peoples fingernails and other totally non-questionable torturous acts. Waterboarding was done a total of 3 times that is confirmed. 3 times.

And yet to you the USA = Khemer Rouge.

 

[Ajidica]

What makes the technique effective is a fear response in relation to drowning.

So inducing immediate and uncontrollable fear responses to extract information or to serve as punishment for an attempted action (which has not been proven) is not torture?

I never said it did. However, as in all things, there are professionals on both sides of the fence on this (and some in the middle as well).

Links please!

The Khemer Rouge also stuck bamboo rods under peoples fingernails and other totally non-questionable torturous acts. Waterboarding was done a total of 3 times that is confirmed. 3 times.

3 confirmed times. Please demonstrate to me how a method on interrogation that is 'no worse then being dunked in the pool' is able to break people in minutes and requires doctors present when our special forces are undergoing it. Again, are our special forces so pathetic as to need specialized training to handle 'being dunked in the pool'?

And yet to you the USA = Khemer Rouge.

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